Volume 43 Number 07
                 Produced: Thu Jun 17  6:19:40 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Dealing w/ Traif / Avodah Zorah
         [Carl Singer]
Duchaning at Neila
         [Eli Turkel]
Erev 17 Tammuz
         [Jeff Fischer]
Labor Unions
         [Richard Dine]
Mikva Night and Invitations (4)
         [Ben Katz, Batya Medad, Gershon Dubin, Tzvi Stein]
Mikva on Friday night (2)
         [Tzvi Stein, Kenneth G Miller]
Mikva when Husband is not Home
         [Tzvi Stein]
Mikveh when husband it out of Town
         [Carl Singer]
         [Perets Mett]
One-handle water faucets on Shabbat
         [Immanuel Burton]
Time for Mincha
         [Jack Gross]


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 06:19:49 -0400
Subject: Dealing w/ Traif / Avodah Zorah

> My point is that there is no difference between a box of traif cereal, a
> mezuza, and a shaitel - the cost is immaterial.  Halacha is an
> expectation that Hashem has from us, and it's not commendable (IMHO) to
> follow Hashem's dictates simply due to the expense.

There is a difference - -not as you put it above, but in the
circumstances as they transpired.

You have a can of soup in your cupboard and someone says that they've
heard that this soup might be mislabeled and thus traif.  You likely
won't use this can of soup but will put it aside until you can get
definitive information.

If however, you're dealing with Avodeh Zorah, there are some who (as
demonstrated by their actions) would insist that your immediately
discard (destroy?) that can.  That's a signficant difference.

Carl Singer


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:02:18 +0300
Subject: Re: Duchaning at Neila

On 16 Jun 2004 10:12:09 -0000, Avi Feldblum wrote:
> In my shul, duchaning is seen as such an important aspect of the
> tephilla, that most of the selichot at Neila are put off to after
> repetion so that "nesiat kapayim" is done on time.

While your minhag is probably preferable, in my shul and many other ones
I know neila is said in the regular order and "nesiat kapayim" is said
after shekia in accordance with views that give an extra 13 minutes or

I also know of at least one shul that says neila in order but starts
very early. That gives a long break between the end of shemonei esre and
blowing the shofar when the rabbi speaks.

Prof. Eli Turkel,  <turkel@...> on 6/16/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University


From: Jeff Fischer <Jf@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:21:25 -0500
Subject: RE: Erev 17 Tammuz

The night of the 17th of Tammuz has the status of the 3 weeks and all of
its laws.  As does the night of Rosh Chodesh Av and the 9 days.

For the other fasts, they begin in the morning. Except for Tisha b'av
and Yom Kippur


From: Richard Dine <richard.dine@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:32:21 -0400
Subject: Labor Unions

>From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
>Does anyone have any information about the halachic issues (if any) with
>regard to joining a labor union, even if you could get a job just as
>easily without joining?

I do not have a specific answer but a great source for Jewish business
ethics is The Business Ethics Center in Jerusalem, set up by Dr. Meir
Tamari, former chief economist for the Bank of Israel and an orthodox
Jew: http://www.besr.org/

Richard Dine
Phone: 301-664-9877
email: <richard.dine@...>


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:08:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Mikva Night and Invitations

>From: Michael Rogovin <rogovin@...>
> > I think no one at all is supposed to know (except the husband, wife,
> > mikva attendant, and any rav who had to be asked about nidda issues).
>Many MJ contributors to this thread have commented (or it was an
>unstated underlying assumption) that a woman should certainly not inform
>anyone other than her husband that she was going to mikvah.
>Now I am about to get into deep trouble on the list with the following
>radical thought...(which is my own and not shared by my wife)
> [long quote of submission removed]
>OK, let the flaming begin...

         I am going to agree with Michael and amplify 2 points in his
well-written piece:

         1.  In the Sephardi community the mikvah is a much more talked
about and in my opinion that may be why sephardi women who may not be
that observant are more likely to attend mikvah that ashkenazi women of
similar religiosity (in my experience). i think mikvah and taharat
hamishpacha should be talked about more and seen as more "normal" to
encourage observance.  i think many on this list would be surprised how
few ashkenazi women attending orthodox shuls use the mikvah.

         2.  I think translating "nidah" as "impure" may be incorrect
and is pejorative.  The root could come from "nad" (as in the punishment
of Cain "na venad tihyeh baaretz") and simply mean "flow" or "wander".
When Eichah saya "al kayn lenidah hayita" the prophet could just be
lamenting the fact that Jews after the destruction will have to wander,
and not necessarily that we will be tameh because they can no longer
bring karbanot.

From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:16:31 +0200
Subject: Re: Mikva Night and Invitations

      revisited, though there may some other issues that might be
      implicated beyond tzniut for that.

      OK, let the flaming begin...

Not an attack.

In certain communities, there are less hang-up's than in the
European-American.  From what I've seen the Eidot Mizrach (North African
Sfaradi) are more open about going, and it's one of the last mitzvot
people give up in contrast to the "E-A" who maybe influenced by x-tian
sexual attitudes, consider it one of the first to go.

There are families quite open about it, and when the mothers are going
tell the kids.  This educates the kids to have a healthy attitude about
everything involved with "halacha and sex."  I admit that we never even
thought of it, but I guess my kids guessed as they grew older, since I
was always so careful about letting them know where I'd be (pre-cell
phones) except when going to the mikvah.

Among close female friends, it's common to be open about one's plans.
After over thirty years of marriage, looking back, I wish that I had
been less "hung-up."  The unnecessary stress, plus the fact that my kids
weren't given the "chinuch"...


From: <gershon.dubin@...> (Gershon Dubin)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:31:12 -0400
Subject: Mikva Night and Invitations

From: Michael Rogovin <rogovin@...>

<<Many MJ contributors to this thread have commented (or it was an
unstated underlying assumption) that a woman should certainly not inform
anyone other than her husband that she was going to mikvah.

Now I am about to get into deep trouble on the list with the following
radical thought...(which is my own and not shared by my wife)

Why are we so hung up on the notion of other people knowing when a woman
goes to mikvah?>>




From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:33:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Mikva Night and Invitations

> Even if I knew for certain that she was going to mikvah on a
> particular night, I don't know how late she or her husband is coming
> home (assuming it is not Shabbat), whether either is not feeling well,
> whether either is tired (especially after working all day at the
> office or with the kids or cooking or etc.), whether they will have a
> "spat" or any other reason why, despite being able to, they may choose
> not to have initmate relations that night.

One point that I'd like to add is that, according to my understanding,
it's actually *required* to have relations on that night, not just
"possible".  As I said before in connection with the husband travelling,
I think the wife is supposed to delay going to the mikva if they can't
have relations that same night.  So it's actually more of a sure thing
than just a possibility.  Since on all other nights, you don't really
know for sure, and on this night it's pretty much a sure thing, I could
see the need for secrecy.  Again, chazal were experts in human


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:38:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Mikva on Friday night

She should wait till the night *before* you get home.  That would solve
all issues.  There is no purpose to go any earlier than that.  I think
there are kabbalistic reasons for not going earlier than necessary.
Also, I think in general, the adultery issue is relevant.  Even though
it does not seem so logical, when it comes to the yetzer hara, logic is
not always the only guide.  Psychology often plays a larger role.
Chazal were great experts in human psychology.

From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:46:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Mikva on Friday night

Several people have written that it is wrong for a woman to go to the
mikveh while her husband is out of town.

I have no idea what the logic is for this. Can someone explain it to me?

There have been several occasions when I was away on business when my
wife was scheduled to go to the mikveh. She went on time.

If she waited until I got home, then upon my arrival, we would have
still been forbidden to touch or pass things to each other for quite a
while.  This would be a few hours if I got home in the morning or
afternoon, or a full day (or even more) if I got home at night. Who
wants that headache?  For what purpose? Why not just go when she is

(I hope no one gives the answer as being "If she goes to the mikveh,
she'll be more likely to commit adultery." With all due respect, that
sounds pretty ridiculous to me: A woman can be trusted to be faithful if
she's a niddah, but might stray from her husband if she goes to the
mikveh? I can understand having such fears if a *single* woman goes to
the mikveh, but a *married* woman? I don't think so.)

Akiva Miller


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:33:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Mikva when Husband is not Home

From: Leah Perl Shollar <leahperl@...>
>> [...]So this sailor's wife would go to the mikvah
>> only when her husband is home (every six months or whatever).  And the
>> all tha halachos that apply the mikva (counting days, etc.) also only
>> apply prior to when she is actually planning to go to the mikva that
>> month.

> How can she keep track of her calendar days if she doesn't count?

She can just mark down the relevant days on the calendar, without counting
clean days.


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:30:43 -0400
Subject: Mikveh when husband it out of Town

I agree with Akiva and don't see the logic of the "don't go when husband
it out of town" opinion -- perhaps it's different for a sailor who's
away for months on end -- but business trips to get cut short,
itineraries change, etc.  Not going until one's husband is back from an
ordinary business trip seems like nonsense -- not to mention issues of
(continuing) to check / count, etc.

Carl A. Singer
70 Howard Avenue, Passaic, NJ  07055-5328
(973) 472-2531
<casinger@...> - See my web site:  www.mo-b.net/cas


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:58:41 +0100
Subject: Mincho

Shmuel Himelstein wrote:

> Am I missing something? Is requiring one to daven Minchah before
> Shkiyah just a Chumrah? I thought that allowing one to daven Minchah
> after Shkiyah - if permitted at all - is a Kulah.

The 'requirement' to daven mincho before sunset is one opinion, the 
'shitas hageonim'.

Other opinions differ.

I have no quarrel with those who adhere to the shitas hageonim - indeed
I do attempt whenever possible to daven mincho before shkio myself - but
they really should present that shito as the only shito.

Davening after sunset is not a 'kulo', and those who do so routinely not
only have the support of numerous poskim (including the mechaber and the
ReMO) but also, for Ashkenazim - have history on their side.

Perets Mett


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:15:06 +0100
Subject: RE: One-handle water faucets on Shabbat

In Mail.Jewish v43n04 it was written:

> I follow my Rebbi, Rabbi Shlomo Singer on Passaic NJ.  He turns down
> the hot water temperature setting before Shabbot starts.  The
> temperature should be less than that which would feel hot (~40C or
> 104F).  Than you can use hot or cold water on Shabbot.

One still has to be careful.  I have a combi-boiler at home that
supplies hot water both for the taps/faucets and the central heating
system.  When one turns on the hot water tap an electric pump
automatically activates to circulate hot water through the system.  So,
even if the water temperature is turned down there is still the problem
of the electric pump.

Immanuel Burton.


From: Jack Gross <ibijbgross2@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:04:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Time for Mincha

>From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
>...it is well known that R. Tam hypothesized that
>there are two "shki`ot"--and the second one is about an hour after the
>first one (what we call "sunset").  According to this view, even if we
>would read "erev" as meaning "shki`ah" we could still "daven" mincha
>well after sunset.  ...

Not necessarily.  The Pri Chadash writes that even acc. R. Tam with his
two stages of sunset, "erev" here means the earlier one -- based on the
correspondence between Zman Tefillat Mincha and Zman Tamid Shel Bein
Ha'arbayim, the latter ending at sunset ("Dam Nifsal Bishki'at


End of Volume 43 Issue 7