Volume 43 Number 19
                 Produced: Wed Jun 23 22:22:41 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Avinu Malkeinu
         [Martin Stern]
Avot keeping the mitzvot
         [Ben Z. Katz]
         [Carl Singer]
Clerical garb
         [Art Werschulz]
comments to M Rogovin's post
         [Shlomo & Syma Spiro]
Hannah Rachel of Ludmir
         [Yael Levine Katz]
         [Martin Stern]
Mikvah being taught
         [Caela Kaplowitz]
Minhag for additional names
Story about a Story (was re: Story Origin)
What we say during Hagba
         [Nachum Hurvitz]


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:20:39 +0100
Subject: Re: Avinu Malkeinu

on 21/6/04 11:36 am, Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> wrote:
> As to the extra time this leaves, I've been in Shuls where the Avinu
> Malkeinu is then said aloud, line by line, by the Chazan followed by the
> congregation.

This is the custom of Jews from Germany who say Avinu Malkeinu this way
every time throughout the Asseret Yemai Teshuvah, not just at Ne'ilah on
Yom Kippur. Incidentally they do not do so this on a Ta'anit Tsibbur
because they do not then say Avinu Malkeinu at all.

Martin Stern


From: Ben Z. Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:10:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Avot keeping the mitzvot

>From: Brandon Raff <Brandon@...>
>Does anyone know the source for the the concept that the Avot, the
>Patriarchs, kept all the mitzvot in the Torah. Could you also include
>textual examples for this concept.

This is an old disagreement, probably going back to tanaitic sources.
there is a midrash (cant remember where offhand) stating that the reason
avraham was commanded to perform milah on the 8th day is because it was
his 8th commandment (after the 7 mitzvot beney noach).  see also the
interesting disagreement between rashi and his grandsonm rashbam on Gen.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
Chicago, IL 60614
Ph 773-880-4187


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:52:38 -0400
Subject: Chiyuvim

I thank Rabbi Teitz for his clear presentation.

The various minhagim of who, how many say (which) kaddish, etc., do they
come to the front, together in unison, or from their own locations in
cacophony, etc., seem to vary greatly.

And the one "vote" per avel, not per deceased seems to be universal.
 BUT, and this is important, in many congregations social good will and
 / or an adept Gabbai comes into play and compromises are worked out.
 Take a simple case, two people have yahrzeit on the same day, davening
 is split among them, etc.  Or the designated avel is running late,
 someone else starts the davening (workday minyanim tend to be under
 time pressure) and there's a switch at an appropriate point.

I remember the weekday shacharis minyan at the Cleveland Hebrew Academy
- which also was the Young Israel shule (aside -- it would be nice if
today more balabatim could cooperate to build multi-purpose school /
shule buildings) the gabbaim were really very adept at keeping everyone
happy.  Additionally, the Cohain, a survivor who, nebech, said kaddish
Every day of the year as he didn't know when his family was killed would
frequently step out of the room on Mondays & Thursdays so more people
could get aliyahs.

I remember, also, at the Bar Mitzvah of one of my sons (my wife is a bas
Levi on both sides - so grandfathers, uncles, cousins, etc. all leviyim)
that a neighbor of ours' visiting father was a Levi and insisted on an
aliyah.  We yielded (I use the term advisedly) but now over a decade
later I still remember that I was unhappy.

I'm still concerned about the "how" of the decision as opposed  to the 

I'm finding more and more that people come into shule and "challenge"
Gabbaim (when the Rabbi is absent) or the Rabbi -- with "rulings" that
they carry with them from outside sources.  We had a visiting "frummer"
(and I use that term, almost in jest) relative of one of our congregants
publicly disagree with our Rabbi's ruling during davening -- the subject
matter has been forgotten ---- but I see it as chutzpah.

At times wonder whether Mail Jewish needs a disclaimer.

Carl A. Singer


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:02:55 -0400
Subject: Clerical garb


> On Hermann Adler and Anglican dress- this was by no means restricted to
> Adler; many German Orthodox rabbis (including many regarded today as
> gedolim) of the 19th Century wore ecclesiastical garb- Rav Hirsch himself
> does so in pictures of him as a young man. Rabbi Hertz did the same, and
> some English "Reverends" actually wore the white clerical collar. I
> suppose it was seen more as general religious garb than specifically
> Christian. To this day, many Chazzanim still wear clothes influenced by
> this.

Which leads me to ask: What's the name of the tall hat worn by such
chazzanim?  I've asked a few chazzanim, who were wearing such a hat, and
never gotten a good answer.

Art Werschulz
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y? 
Internet: <agw@...><a href="http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~agw/">WWW</a>
ATTnet:   Columbia U. (212) 939-7060, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325


From: Shlomo & Syma Spiro <spiro@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:54:32 +0200
Subject: comments to M Rogovin's post

bh, yom rishon hukat

> The halachic question of whether or not giving up any part of Eretz
> Yisrael has been hijacked for quite sometime by the Gush Emunim
> movement, among others in the religious settler camp (and its

<hijacked> is a loaded word, and carries the connotation that Rav Tzvi
Yehudah Kook ztz"l and his followers were insincere in their ideology
and activity. If politics is to be kept out of a discussion of halakhah
and hashkafah such accusations should not be made

> Numerous poskim, including Rav Joseph Soloveitchik and Rav Ovadia
> Yosef, have opined that giving up portions of Eretz Yisrael is a
> political decision, or to the extent that it is halachic, it is a
> calculation of pikuach nefesh which is a political decision to be
> made by the elected government, not self-appointed rabbis.

And there were numerous poskim, including Rav Shlomo Goren, ztz'l and
Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rav Abraham Shapiro Rav Dov Lior, yibodlu lehayim
arukhim who "paskined" that land is more important than pikuah nefesh.
Rav Soloveitchik's z"l and Rav Ovadia Yosef's, yobodel lehayim arukhim
piske din were rendered before Oslo.  Their assumption was that land
would bring a cessation of Jewish casualties and it was on that basis
that they issued their piskot.  But the reality was the reverse, ceding
land brought more death.

But more to the point.  In the classical cases of pikuah nefesh, the one
that determines wheter a person is likely to die if a halakhah is not
violated is the expert, in most cases the doctor.  In the case of
Medinat Yisrael, the experts are the military,NOT THE POLITICIANS.  And
all the military then ( before Oslo) were very clear that from a
security point of view giving up land will endanger the citizens of
Israel and they are saying the same thing now.  This point was made
again and again by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ztz"l in many of his

> As to the comment about the rabbi being influenced by leftist politics,
> the same can be said about the influence of rightist politics on other
> rabbis and the poster. Ideally, halacha is halacha and is not influenced>

It may be that "other rabbis" have been influenced by rightist politics
and have turned, but I haven't heard of them.

s. spiro


From: Yael Levine Katz <ylkpk@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:02:32 +0200
Subject: Hannah Rachel of Ludmir

I am sending the following email at the request of Ruth Gan Kagan, with
whom I am in touch concerning the planned commemoration of Hannah Rachel
of Ludmir.


Dear Friends

Hannah Rachel of Ludmir, better known as "The Maiden of Ludmir" is
popularly known as the only "woman rebbe" in the history of the hasidic
movement. Various authors have sought to describe her exploits: leading
Sabbath "third meal" gatherings in her own study house, healing the ill,
wearing tallit and tefillin, and studying talmud. Being an acclaimed
scholar of Hebrew scriptures and mysticism put her at odds with the
rabbinate of her day. Her activities aroused controversy within the
Jewish community.

           In the middle of the nineteenth century the Maiden of Ludmir
left the shtetl of her birth and immigrated to Palestine, where she
settled in Jerusalem, living out the remainder of her life unhindered as
Rebbe of her own court. During this last phase of her life, Hannah
Rachel was known to pray daily at the Kotel ha-Ma'aravi in tallit and
tefillin, leading pilgrimages to holy sites, and to hold large teachings
at her Shabbat tisch.

          In a new book published last year the researcher Nathaniel
Deutch found evidence of her life in the Kollel Volin community in
Jerusalem and identified a grave that is very likely to be hers on Har
ha-Zeitim. This came as very welcome news to those of us who were hoping
to find this grave that disappeared from our eyes.

          When we went to visit the grave we found that it was unmarked,
as are many others in this cemetery, and a fund, inspired by R. Zalman
Schachter-Shalomi, was started. The stone will be finished shortly and
an unveiling is planned on her jahrzeit on 22nd of Tammuz ^ which falls
this year on July 11th.

         We would also like to honor her and the inspiration she brings
to a generation that prides itself on promoting women to Torah
excellence and spiritual leadership, in a way that will echo her
practice and hasidic way of life. We propose holding a third meal on
Shabbat afternoon, July the 10th in Jerusalem and following it with a
farbrengen-jahrzeit on Motza'ei Shabbat.

        At this point we need people to step forward and help in
visioning and organizing this event. We would like to collaborate with
those who feel inspired by the spirit of Hannah Rachel. Please contact
me if you are interest in contributing or participating, if you have any
ideas, or if you would like to publicize this on your e-mail lists.

Many blessings
Ruth Gan Kagan
8 Gideon St., Jerusalem, Israel 93606
Tel: 972-2-6716636


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:43:47 +0100
Subject: Re: Mamzerut

on 21/6/04 12:14 pm, Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...> wrote:
> Reagrding mamzerut, I recall once learning that there's a "don't tell"
> policy- if no one (apart from the adulterers, or maybe a few others)
> knows the child is a mamzer (perhaps this applies to chalalim as
> well), then, for all practical purposes, s/he is not.  Does anyone
> know a source on this?

Probably one relies on two principles. First "ein adam meisim atsmo
rasha - a person is not believed to say that he is wicked" and therefore
we do not believe the adulterers when they say that they committed the
forbidden act (at least as far as any child is concerned). Second "rov
be'lot holchin achar haba'al - the majority of acts of copulation take
place with the husband" together with "kol deparish meirubba parish -
something that comes from an unknown source is assumed to come from that
which forms the majority" leads to the conclusion that the child was
conceived from the husband unless we are certain that this was

Martin Stern


From: Caela Kaplowitz <caelak@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:43:06 -0400
Subject: Mikvah being taught

Dov Bloom quoted R Deuel Basok:

>In schools he claimed it is not taught, so "how's a girl to know?"

I don't know about all cities but the Bais Yaakov here in Baltimore most
definitely teaches about mikvah. It is presented to the girls in their
senior year and they have a tour of our (beautiful and very clean)
Baltimore mikvah. My own daughters went on the tour and when they came
home we discussed it.

Caela Kaplowitz
Baltimore, MD


From: Rephael <raphi@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 05:28:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Minhag for additional names


Martin Stern <md.stern@...> wrote:
> The custom of shinnui hashem (changing the name of a very sick person)
> would also seem make this assumption. If the person had been called
> Avraham and the new name was Chaim, on his recovery he is called Chaim
> Avraham NOT just Chaim.

In that case, would his son's name become Ploni ben Chaim Avraham or
would it remain Ploni ben Avraham, as before his father's name was

Rephael Cohen


From: Yakir <yakirhd@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:51:27 +0200
Subject: Story about a Story (was re: Story Origin)

In response to Tzvi Stein.

Once again I don't know the source of this one, or which one of the many
versions if any is correct.  (I assume the point is that none are !).

It is about the misnagid (sorry, "mitnaged" is just not the same) who
was fed up with all the marvelous stories about this Rebbe or another
and his miracles so he invented a Rebbe and a collection of stories of
his miraculous powers and great wisdom.

When this had been "swallowed" and spread by the chassidim he knew he
triumphantly told them that it was all fiction and just a "bunch of
rubbish" (or words to that effect) and what do they think now of all
these wonder stories.

They however answered with a smile of pity that he had totally missed
the point - these stories have an existence of their own with an inner
truth. So too did his stories and it was a pity that he "destroyed"

Perhaps we need to view them like midrashim - some are more "factual"
than others, some details are more "correct" etc - but it doesn't really
matter, what matters is their inner content.

Food for thought and argument (l'shem shamayim).
-- Yakir.


From: Nachum Hurvitz <Nachum.Hurvitz@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:37:42 -0400
Subject: What we say during Hagba

While on this subject, does anyone know the source for people pointing
their pinkies at the Torah while saying "V'zos Hatorah?" Thanks

Nachum Hurvitz


End of Volume 43 Issue 19