Volume 43 Number 20
                 Produced: Wed Jun 23 22:44:21 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Another Birkat Kohanim question
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Appropriating other Religions' Ritual Objects
         [Tzvi Stein]
Chiyuvim  -- One vote or 3 ?
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Deliberately Invalid Marriages (2)
         [Bill Bernstein, Daniel Cohn]
Deliberately invalid marriages
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
formally known as Madonna
         [Tzvi Stein]
Found Tefillin that was stolen
The Lack of Symmetry in the Jewish Modesty Laws
         [Janice Gelb]
Malka Esther
Mikva Night/Posting Without Sources
Sefer of Rabbi Lipa from Khmyelnik?
         [Paul Ginsburg]
URL for Rav Bazak's Rejoinder to Rav Meidan's Reaction to his
         [David Eisen]


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:08:39 +0300
Subject: Re: Another Birkat Kohanim question

Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> stated the following:

>One weekday morning, the Chazan was a member of the Eidot Mizrach and a
>While reciting Modim aloud in the Chazarat Hashatz, he walked over from
>the Bimah in the center to the front of the Aron, and joined me for the
>Birkat Kohanim.

This seems to be the way the Mishna Berura says you should do it, but
I've certainly never seen any Ashkenazi sheliah tzibbur kohen leave his



From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:48:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Appropriating other Religions' Ritual Objects

Where we live, it is quite common to find all-white infant outfits that
are marketed as "first communion" outfits.  Many Jewish parents dress
their infant in this for their bris.  Anything wrong with that?

Also I heard of case where someone was in a remote place and the only
candles they could find were ones built into a Santa figure (although
they were able to separate the candle from the Santa).  What about that?

Also, I've heard the custom of the rabbi giving a drasha on Shabbos is
appropriated from the church custom of giving a sermon.


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:13:55 +0300
Subject: Re: Chiyuvim  -- One vote or 3 ?

Rabbi Teitz stated the following on Sun, 20 Jun 2004 09:10:14 -0400

              As for the second question, shiva is first and an avel is
      last.  For shloshim and yahrzeit, it would seem that the yahrzeit
      takes precedence over the shloshim.  (What he writes is that the
      yahrzeit gets one kaddish, and the shloshim all the others; but
      when there are as many yahrzeits as kaddeishim, the shloshim loses
      out completely.  Extending this to serving as the shaliach
      tzibbur, where there can only be one, it would thus seem to follow
      that the yahrzeit gets it.)

On this question, Gesher Hahayyim 30:10:2 (if I understood correctly)
states that the sheloshim man has MORE qaddishim than the yahrzeit man.

Regarding davening fahren `amud, the sheloshim man davens until after
the repetition of the Shemoneh `Esre, and the yahrzeit man davens Ashrei
and Uva leZion.  They split the qaddishim of `Alenu and Ein kElokeinu,
The last Barekhu is said by the yahrzeit man (since the sheloshim man
already said the first Barekhu).  If neither had davened fahren `amud,
they split the qaddishim of `Alenu and Ein kElokeinu; the yahrzeit man
says the second Barekhu.  They divide the other qaddishim in the ratio
of two parts to the yahrzeit man to one part for the sheloshim man.

This does not take into account synagogues in hutz la'aretz that have
only one Barekhu and no Ein kElokeinu.

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: <billbernstein@...> (Bill Bernstein)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:28:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Deliberately Invalid Marriages

This thread has obviously touched a nerve, given the volume and quality
of responses to it.

I had the opportunity to ask a well-known rav who is expert in these
matters about this issue.

First, he had never heard of such a thing.  Second, he located the
problem in Choshen Mishpat and not in Even HoEzer.  He said that if the
rabbi is hired as mesader kiddushin (the same would hold for witnesses I
suppose) and fails to do his job then it is an issue of misleading those
who hired him.  His statement was to the effect that integrity is the
most important thing.  I do not understand those posters who have
written that any marriage can be invalidated retroactively.  Either the
kiddushin was good and kosher or it wasn't.  If it was good then it
requires a get to separate that bond.  I know one couple whose mesader
kiddushin was the Satmar rebbe zt'l, a self-described "lechatchila Yid".
It is inconceivable to me that someone could come along and "invalidate"
such a kiddushin.

Finally, I am still wondering what it is that the mesader kiddushin
could do to make the kiddushin invalid.  I wonder about what is really
going on.

Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN.

From: Daniel Cohn <daniel.cohn@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:40:59 -0400
Subject: RE: Deliberately Invalid Marriages

>>>From what I've been told, this was once not uncommon in America.
>Gil Student

Outside Israel, wouldn't this involve an element of fraud? If someone is
contracting the services of an Orthodox Rabbi for the purposes of
performing an halachically valid wedding (as opposed to Israel where it
might be argued that most non observant Jews do it just to comply with
the law), isn't the Rabbi supposed to make sure all the halachical
requirements -such as kosher witnesses - are complied with?

Daniel Cohn

From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:32:55 +0300
Subject: Re: Deliberately invalid marriages

Avinoam Bitton <avib@...> stated:
      I can verify this from personal experience.
      I was one of  two observant edim at the wedding of a non-frum
      friend, some 25 years ago in NY.  My Rav advised that I
      deliberately avoid viewing the critical moments under the
      huppa, which I did. (I'm quite sure that there were no other
      frum Jews among the celebrants.)

This seems likh'ora to be shocking.  A witness who intentionally does
not perform the function of a witness.  Has anyone a source for the
permissibility or prohibition regarding doing this sort of thing?

Especially since, in many weddings the groom says to the witnesses
"atem, veraq atem, eidai."  (You, and only you, are my witnesses.)  To
accept the job with the intention of not performing it!?

Doesn't it almost sound like a surgeon intentionally being negligent at
an operation that he is performing?

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:56:48 -0400
Subject: formally known as Madonna

What's up with the artist formally known as Madonna (now "Esther")?
What is she actually doing? Is it "good for the Jews"?


From: Rephael <raphi@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 04:42:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Found Tefillin that was stolen


You (and others with similar requests) might be willing to post this
information on the website of Machon Peer. They have a special section
for found tefillin at http://www.machonpeer.co.il.

Click on: 
* Peer beasiyah 
* Besherut Hakehillah 
* Hashavat Aveidah

Rephael Cohen


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:08:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Lack of Symmetry in the Jewish Modesty Laws

Russell Hendel <rjhendel@...> wrote:
> Finally I should indicate a reason for this lack of symmetry. Quite
> simply the lack of symmetry in the modesty laws reflects a corresponding
> lack of symmetry in male-female physiology. Female responses are
> basically involuntary--- the healthy women always responds to physical
> advances in bed--but a mans responses are not involuntary.
> Hence, Biblical law requires the man to be responsible for the womens
> sexual happiness but does not require the woman to be responsible for
> the mans happiness. Again: The lack of symmetry in physiology gives rise
> to a lack of symmetry in the law.

I am very puzzled by the above statement. While women are indeed shaped
so that they can accommodate sexual relations at any time, the statement
that "the healthy woman always responds to physical advances in bed"
leaves me almost speechless. Women are not always receptive to sexual
advances, as the above statement seems to imply. Tiredness, anxiety, the
lack of other positive interpersonal interaction with a spouse, can all
lead to disinterest in, or active rejection of, the idea of physical
relations. OTOH, the reaction by a man to sexual advances is usually
much more predictable, and physically obvious, than the receptiveness of
a woman.

I sincerely hope that I have misunderstood what Mr Hendel is trying to

-- Janice


From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:24:40 EDT
Subject: Malka Esther

madonna is no longer madonna. She is malka esther.  What's next?  I
haven't been able to figure out if this is bad or good for the jews.


From: Anonymous
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:51:58
Subject: Mikva Night/Posting Without Sources

Yeyasher kochachech to Chana Luntz for her detailed discussion of the
halachic issues.  At least a dozen issues of mail-jewish have largely,
and in effect needlessly, been focused on this topic without any
reference to halachic sources.  While that has provided many members of
the mail-jewish community a public forum for their impressionistic
speculation, it has done nothing to distill an understanding of what may
and may not be permitted and why -- and anyone looking for the latter
has had to waste time slogging through these emails in vain.
Ms. Luntz's thorough coverage finally provides that distillation, and,
having laid out the various positions on tevilah b'zmanah and
non-disclosure of tevilah, makes clear that any final resolution of what
one should or shouldn't do in the Friday night hypothetical ought to be
resolved by one's LOR.

The same holds true for many, many other topics of discussion recently.
To echo the calls of others, perhaps all of us can refrain from posting
what purport to be answers to questions without taking the time to cite
a supporting source.  I suspect that we'll all find ourselves both
better informed and with more time on our hands as a result.


From: Paul Ginsburg <GinsburgP@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:31:46 -0400
Subject: Sefer of Rabbi Lipa from Khmyelnik?

Does anyone know the name of the sefer of Rabbi Lipa from Khmyelnik? He
is quoted in Degel Machaneh Ephraim (in parshas Vaera and Beshalach).

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Paul W. Ginsburg
Rockville, Maryland


From: David Eisen <davide@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:43:35 +0200
Subject: URL for Rav Bazak's Rejoinder to Rav Meidan's Reaction to his


Something tells me that this will not be the word on this important and
fundamental debate (READ: Milhamta Shel Torah).

Kol tuv u'Bvirkat HaTorah,



End of Volume 43 Issue 20