Volume 43 Number 26
                 Produced: Mon Jun 28 21:54:51 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Avot transgressing Torah?
         [Kenneth G Miller]
Chasidim in Teverya (was Hats)
         [Yisrael Medad]
Child Determining Kashrut of a Sefer Torah (3)
         [Elanit Z. Rothschild, Joseph Kaplan, Caela Kaplowitz]
Chupa after Shkiah
         [Batya Medad]
Following the Majority
         [Mark Steiner]
Found Tefillin that was stolen
         [Sam Saal]
Illegal Torah website
         [Joshua Seidemann]
Kollel Volin in Jerusalem
         [Paul Ginsburg]
Simanei Sefer ha-Middot
         [Seth & Sheri Kadish]
Source for ATBa"Sh
         [Josh Backon]
Story Origin (2)
         [Joel Rich, Ira Bauman]
Using digital "public domain" Sefarim
         [Shmuel Himelstein]


From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:09:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Avot transgressing Torah?

Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi asked about Avraham Avinu: <<< I'm
dissatisfied with the apologia regarding the meat/milk mix. The usual
explanation given there is that he first served the curds then
separately served the meat, but that is not the plain reading of the
Torah, which simply says he served both:period. >>>

That's why I prefer a different explanation. (Sorry, I can't remember
where I heard it.) - While he personally would not have eaten the curds
and meat together, he had no problem with offering it to the angels,
who, as far as he knew, were ordinary non-Jews.

Akiva Miller


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:29:33 +0200
Subject: Chasidim in Teverya (was Hats)

>  Noyekh Miller asks: does anyone know which Rebbe's followers were
>  most numerous in Tiberias and the Galilee?

a quick answer, and not thorough, comes from the relating of Rebbe
Nahman's trip there in 1798, I think.  According to "Masa HaKodesh", the
Chasidim there belonged to the talmidim of the Maggid of Mezritch.  The
talmidim of the Besht that went to Eretz-Yisrael included Rebbe Gershon
of Kitov, the Besht's brother-in-law, and Rabi Avraham Shimshon HaKohen
of Rashkov (son of the "Toldot") but when Rabi Elazar Rokeach died,
there was a return to Europe.

five years after the Besht's passing, in 1765, 15 Tzaddikim made Aliyah
among them Rabi Nahman of Horodenka (Rebbe Nahman's grandfather,
incidentally) and Menachem Mendel of Pre'mishlin but this too was a weak
community of Ashkenazim in a Sefaradi majority (btw, the guess about
shtreimels is but a guess; the strange hats could have been Sefaradi
haberdashery although I would agree that the shtreimels were stranger
hats than most especially is a hot climate.  In a film photographed at
the turn of the century we see in Jerusalem the Chassidim there and
there headgear is very strange looking).

in Adar 1777, 300 Chasidim of Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk arrived there
and included Rabi Avraham of Kalisk and additional talmidim of the
Maggid of Mezritch.  Another Chasid was Rabi Tzvi Hersh of Harki.  Just
returned from raising funds abroad and now in Teverya was Yaakov
Shimshon of Shpitivkah and his companion Pinchas of Koritz.  Moshe, the
son of Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk was in Teverya.

Incidentally, Rebbe Nahman fled Teverya due to an outbreak of a
community disease.  The book doesn't tell how but has us readers seeing
Rebbe Nahman on the city wall shouting out for mercy.

Yisrael Medad


From: Elanit Z. Rothschild <ezrothschild@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:57:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Child Determining Kashrut of a Sefer Torah

Daniel Katsman asks in MJ 43:23:

>>>Rabbi Reiss was a little disappointed. "Seven times out of ten," he
said to me, "the kid gives the right answer." As time has gone by, I
wonder more and more where he got that statistic. Have any Mail-Jewish
readers ever seen this happen? What were the results?  <<<

Actually, it happened just 2 weeks ago in Washington DC, at Kesher
Israel's hashkama minyan.  The question was regarding a "bet" that
looked like a "chaf."  They called up the only child in the room, a
young girl, and asked her to identify the letter.  She said that it
looked like a "chaf" to her, so they put the sefer torah away, brought
out another one, and continued on.

Elanit Rothschild

From: Joseph Kaplan <penkap@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:10:44 -0400
Subject: Child Determining Kashrut of a Sefer Torah

I was once that child. (It was many, many, many years ago.)  All I
remember is that the shamas (who was the ba'al koreh) called me up and
asked me about a certain letter.  I had no idea why he was doing so
since the answer was so simple.  I told him the letter and then everyone
around me patted me on the back and said yasher koach, and they resumed
reading from that sefer torah.  It wasn't until later that someone
explained to me what happened.

Joseph Kaplan

From: Caela Kaplowitz <caelak@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:24:38 -0400
Subject: Child Determining Kashrut of a Sefer Torah

Daniel Katsman wrote: 'Rabbi Reiss was a little disappointed.  "Seven
times out of ten," he said to me, "the kid gives the right answer."  '

What disappointed him? That the Torah wasn't kosher or that the child made 
it not kosher? And what is the "right" answer here?

Caela Kaplowitz
Baltimore, MD


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:24:53 +0200
Subject: Re: Chupa after Shkiah

      fast during the previous day - or only from Shkiah. Are night time
      (post shkiah) weddings common in any communities?  I know they are
      permissible, I was at one wedding where the Shmorg, etc., ran late

All winter long.  In Israel the vast majority of weddings are week
nights, rarely Friday morning.  In the winter the chupah is after shkiya
and the rest of the year, some before, some after.  Usually if it's
planned for before, it's indicated in the invitation.  Just last week,
on one of the "longest days" of the year, there were two weddings from
Shiloh families.  One had the chupah before shkiya and one after.



From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:02:42 +0300
Subject: RE: Following the Majority

> 	"Or, "acharei rabim lehatot" is used as textual support for the
> proposition that we should follow the majority, when the original
> context is that we should *not* (under some conditions) follow the
> majority.  No doubt many other such examples could be adduced."

	It is possible, nevertheless, to reconcile both readings in the
following way: the Torah says "velo ta`aneh `al riv lintot aharei rabim,
lehatot."  The context can be understood as legal, since "riv" often
means a civil suit.  "Lehatot" is short for "lehatot mishpat" to pervert
justice.  The term "ta`aneh" means "to speak up," i.e. to give an
opinion in the beit din.  Thus the "pshat" can be--do not cast a vote to
join a majority [of the court] to pervert justice.  From this it is
presupposed what Hazal say, that the procedure is to FOLLOW the majority
in a legal setting.

	Indeed, we can take this one step further.  The beginning of the
verse is "Lo tihyeh aharei rabim lera`ot," where "ra`ot" can be
understood as a punishment, such as the death sentence.  "Riv" on the
other hand, is a civil procedure.  Hence a possible translation is: "Do
not follow the majority in a capital case to convict falsely [by
producing here a majority of two]; and do not cast your DECIDING
[lintot] vote in a civil suit to PRODUCE a bare majority to pervert
justice [aharei rabim, lehatot]."  From here we see implied that in
capital cases we need a majority of two; in civil cases a majority of
one, just as Hazal said.


From: Sam Saal <ssaal@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:00:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Found Tefillin that was stolen

Rephael <raphi@...> wrote>

>You (and others with similar requests) might be willing to post this
>information on the website of Machon Peer. They have a special section
>for found tefillin at http://www.machonpeer.co.il.

Also Luach.com

Sam Saal


From: Joshua Seidemann <quartertones@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:24:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Illegal Torah website

      at least one of the "scanned seforim on-line" web-sites includes
      seforim for which the copyright is still active, and the sefer is
      still sold by the publishing house in regular bookstores.  I
      emailed the site-master to inquire about this practice but never
      received any response.


From: Paul Ginsburg <GinsburgP@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:30:41 -0400
Subject: Kollel Volin in Jerusalem

I have recently read about a Kollel Volin in Jerusalem.  Does anyone
know if this kollel is still operational, and if so who runs it (i.e. is
it affiliated with any group)?

Finally, if it is operational, would anyone have a mailing address?

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Paul W. Ginsburg
Rockville, Maryland


From: Seth & Sheri Kadish <skadish@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:49:14 +0200
Subject: Simanei Sefer ha-Middot

Simanei Sefer ha-Middot (a missing part of the ethical work Orhot
Zaddikim) is now available online in three formats: an image of the
manuscript (pdf), a typed line-by-line transcription, and a corrected
edition with notes.

(I have made some changes to the corrected edition since I first
announced the simanim a few months ago; the online version is the most
current one.)

An image of the first Hebrew edition (Prague, 1581) is also available at
the same location. See http://www.seforimonline.org/seforim7.html

Seth (Avi) Kadish


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Fri,  25 Jun 2004 15:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Source for ATBa"Sh

The ATBASH acrostic appeats a few times in Tanach: Jeremiah 25:26 and
51:41 (the word Sheshach is an ATBASH for Bavel) and in 51:1 (the words
lev kamai are an ATBASH for Kasdim).

Josh Backon


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:39:05 EDT
Subject: Re: Story Origin

      These stories (hopefully) instill within their listeners emunas
      chachomim, love for Torah scholars and scholarship, and a dugma
      chaya of what a person can and should be.

      L. Shollar

Dr. Beukas(for YU buffs) in speech 101 taught us "know your audience".
I'm not sure these stories translate well to more worldly members of
society(even orthodox society) . I'd rather not expand on this in the
public forum but I don't think that we should assume that "wonder
stories" always have the intended effect.

Joel Rich

From: <Yisyis@...> (Ira Bauman)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:50:11 EDT
Subject: Re: Story Origin

      He always points out that 'even if the facts are not true, the
      story is'.  Or as he puts it: "They don't tell these stories about
      you and me."

I agree with Rabbi Wein about the role of legends, but I am worried
about the acceptance of fanciful stories as fact and what that does to
our concept of TRUTH.  I have heard Rav Gelley speak about the issue.
He gave an example of a group of American Jews who were negotiating with
the Nazis to release a trainload of European Jews for a sum of money.
At one point after the negotiations had begun the Nazis asked the
delegation whether they were having success raising the money.  They
answered, "truthfully, no".  The deal failed.  Rav Gelley said that
although the truthful answer was NO, an answer that was EMMES would be
yes.  Basically Emmes was dependent on what is good for the Jews. Jewish
legends could also then be called Emmes.  If that is the case do we have
a word to reflect objective truth.  If I look up on a clear day and say
the sky is blue without any Torah repercussions, can we call that Emmes?

Ira Bauman


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:55:45 +0300
Subject: Using digital "public domain" Sefarim

While a Sefer whose author has been dead for tens if not hundreds of
years is obviously in the public domain by all secular laws, its keying
(typing) into a digital format is obviously something which costs money.

The assumption - unless proven otherwise - is that the person or
organization which keyed in the text did not intend it to be passed
around freely, without remuneration for those who spent the time and
effort in keying it in.

Everyone who wants to has the full right to take any public domain Sefer
and to type in the text him- or herself. Then the person can do with
that version of the text whatever he or she feels like doing.

The same cannot be said when someone else has spent time and/or money in
entering the text into digital format.

Incidentally, if one took a public domain text and embellished it with
format instructions, font changes, etc., that particular version can be
copyrighted - not the text, but the arrangement of the text. That's
copyright law.

I'm obviously ignoring the Halachic aspect in my comments above, but it
would seem to me that Halachah would probably say the same thing when
someone typed in a Sefer. I'll leave that aspect to others to deal with.

Shmuel Himelstein


End of Volume 43 Issue 26