Volume 43 Number 37
                    Produced: Fri Jul  9  5:49:38 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Already identified Rash"i
Copyright al-regel-achat
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Kedusha Desidra
         [Martin Stern]
Meat and Milk
         [Carl Singer]
Quoting partial p'sukim
         [Jack Gross]
Stripes on Talit
         [Martin Stern]
Torah scroll
         [Y. Askotzky (STAM)]
Using digital "public domain" Sefarim
         [Keith Bierman]
Washing on a Fast Day
         [Steven Oppenheimer]


From: Yakir <yakirhd@...>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:09:40 +0200
Subject: Already identified Rash"i

I see that I am not the only one who knows how to use the Chalamish CD :-).

It might be of interest, however, that the "Or Etzion" edition of the Sfat
Emet (they don't do the Sfas Emes) has extensive and useful footnotes which
have the source of references in the text including expansion of quoted
midrashim etc.


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:34:42 +0300
Subject: Copyright al-regel-achat

This URL gives an excellent summary of the U.S. laws governing copyright


Shmuel Himelstein


From: Anonymous
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:32:40
Subject: Gender-Segregation

To the mail-jewish community:

      This may be a very sensitive question, but its one I've thought
about for awhile and it is definitely something that should be

       It is very simple to have a knee-jerk reaction to the relaxed
attitude towards coed socialization found in Modern Orthodox circles.
Speaking strictly from experience in the NY area, it is rare for even
the children who attend single sex schools such as MTA, Rambam, SKA, and
TABC to completely eschew coed socialization opportunites (such as NCSY,
summer camps, interschool extracurriculars, or even the shul lobby on
Shabbos morning). I certainly understand the visceral reaction of the
black-hat community which decries these developments as, if not
intrinsically non-halachic, a clear gateway to forbidden
activity. However, I wanted to turn the tables and look at the other
side of the equation.

     Is there any serious literature dealing with the effects of going
though puberty and adolescence in a completely gender-segregated
environment (not merely in school, but never talking to a member of the
opposite sex until "shidduchim" or until entering the workforce)? After
talking to a few psychology professors, I was told that studies of this
nature are both intrinsically difficult and hard to pull off because of
the communities' resistance to a study that could show negative
results. Although the situation is significantly different, we know that
this environment does cause some issues in the Catholic seminary
environment (in research pre-dating the current scandal).

      So, in the interest of raising the issues, I'd like to point out a
few difficulties that might arise from complete gender segregation:

1) Sexual Orientation- Puberty is a difficult time period, regardless of
the environment. The issues are clearer in a coed environment (or in a
single-sex school where coed socialization is expected) and the schools
in question often offer instruction and, ideally, parents are aware and
involved. In the more black-hat community, addressing the issue beyond a
reiteration of the prohibition of "talking to girls" is a rarity. What
happens to the boys who have the same intense hormones as all other
boys, but absolutely no outlet. Can sexual orientation be changed,
altered, or reinforced?

2) Objectification- Girls (I am dealing with the younger set, say 13-23)
are solely seen as objects of enticement. In some cases, boys can solely
deal with girls as an object of fantasy. This sense is reinforced by the
fact that societal controls on interaction are so strict (leading to the
attitude that meeting in a pizza shop is but a short step from an
intimate relationship). This would not be a problem if the boys never
had to deal with females, but...

3) Socialization- Eventually, most males must end up interacting with
females. Some in the yeshivah start (surreptitously) during high
school. The fact that this activity is so frowned upon makes this a
major dividing line between the "good" kids and the "bad" kids. In a
high school I am familiar with, I can think of many very promising
students who were labeled "bad" because they interacted with females and
rather than deal with or ignore the issue in order to save the promising
student, the administration marginalized them and bided the time until
they could drive these students out. A prominent educator once told me
"once the boy is involved with girls... it's over!" Won't an educational
system that lacks flexibility to such a degree drive away talented
students who make wrong, but very understandable, choices? Isn't this a
huge waste of potential?

        And for those boys who behave themselves and never interact with
a female before entering college or the workforce at around 20... can
they make the adjustment properly. Can they understand the difference
between a friendly attitude and sexual interest? Will they jump out of
their skin every time they are addressed by a women of their age? With
time these issues should pass, but it seems like we are encouraging a
delayed adolescence here.

4) Marriage- For those who are in yeshiva until shidduchim, aren't there
obvious, and even potentially tragic, problems with becoming serious
with the first girl a boy is set up with? Can the boy distinguish a deep
and mutual respect and love from the puppy love that afflicts
adolescents? The girl may be charming, but are we encouraging the boy to
mistake feminity for compatibility? This tendency is exacerbated by the
tendency of some yeshivos (more implicitly, through the culture) to
encourage their bochurim not to be "square" with their potential wives
("girls aren't rational... pay attention, appear interested... but
ultimately you don't have to respect her opinion").

These are some of the issues that have been gnawing at me for awhile. I
appreciate the time you took to read this.

Thank you very much,


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:49:03 +0100
Subject: Re: Kedusha Desidra

on 2/7/04 11:16 am, Mark Steiner <marksa@...>, in response to
my previous observation, wrote:

> There is also the kedusha desidra (Uva letziyon goel "kadosh") which
> we also say in private, but here it would be proper to recite the
> verse "vekara zeh el zeh - kadosh" using the te`amim (i.e. in the
> melody of the haftarah) in order to avoid the prohibition of saying a
> davar shebikdusha privately.  Since here we are saying the entire
> pasuk, there would be no objection to reading the pasuk with the
> te`amim.

I was drawing attention to those who say "vekara zeh el zeh veamar" and
then wait for the shats before continuing. If they are relying on his
words to complete the pasuk, then they have said a half pasuk
previously. Surely it would be correct to say this phrase together with
him, having paused after "Veatah hadosh yosheiv tehillot Yisrael"

Martin Stern


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 06:47:09 -0400
Subject: Meat and Milk

>> the only Torah prohibition is to eat meat and milk together. 
> One should not confuse relatively recent chumras with basic halachic
> requirements. 

The Torah prohibition (D'oraisah) is COOKING meat and milk together.
(common translation, "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.)

I point this out as a precaution to those of us who may volunteer in
(non-kosher) soup kitchens, etc.

Each Thanksgiving we volunteer at such a place, we stay away from any
aspects of cooking as it's readily apparent that butter seems to be the
flavor enhancer used with virtually everything in this particular

Carl A. Singer


From: Jack Gross <ibijbgross@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:51:16 -0400
Subject: RE: Quoting partial p'sukim

The dictum is "Kol pasuk d'lo paskeh Moshe anan lo paskinan, v'Khol
parash d'lo poskeh Moshe anan lo paskinan" -- Literally, Any verse or
paragraph which Moshe did not split, we may not split.

There seem to be two qualifications to this restrictive rule:

    (1) On the face of it, this applies specifically to Toras Moshe, and
not to Na"Kh.

    (2) Apparently there are verses and paragraphs which Moshe _did_
split into fragments, and we _are_ allowed to recite the fragment in
that case.

By (2) I mean, if the pasuk contains a quotation, or a formula that one
is to recite, that part of the verse or paragraph constitutes an
"imbedded" verse or paragraph and may be read by itself.  Obvious
examples are Vidduy Bikkurim, Viddui Maasrot and Hashbaat Sotah, where
the parasha _commands_ one to recite a statement which is not written as
a complete parsha. (Arguably, if one read the entire parsha he would not
fulfill the requirement, since he would then be stating that "one should
recite these words", rather than making the words his own statement.)

The issue is raised (in a Tosafot) with regard to our treatment of Anna
H" Hoshiyah Na in Hallel:  We recite the first half of the verse twice,
and then the second half twice.  While this appears to violate the rule,
either of the above points may apply:
    1. The rule may be inapplicable to Tehillim
    2. Based on the gemara's attribution of the two parts of the verse to
different historical figures, they constitute separate quotations, and a
quotation may be lifted from a verse and recited by itself.
-- As I recall, the above are two terutzim offered by Tosfot.

This would apply as well to Kadosh and Baruch in Kedusha: We are invited
by the Reader (Nekaddesh...) to join in reciting a complete sentence
that appears within a verse: "Kadosh ... Kevodo"; that is accomplished
by saying the imbedded quotation, and Davka not the whole verse.


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:49:35 +0100
Subject: Re: Stripes on Talit

on 22/6/04 11:38 am, <ROSELANDOW@...> (Rose Landowne) wrote:

> Someone recently told me that in Europe, different areas of population
> had different stripe traditions, and you could tell where someone was
> from from the stripe pattern on his talit, sort of like Scottish clan
> tartans.

I have never heard of this and very much doubt whether it is
true. However textiles found in the area of the Dead Sea from the Bar
Kochba period also had this sort of stripe pattern so it may be of
considerable antiquity.

Martin Stern


From: Y. Askotzky (STAM) <sofer@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:54:42 +0200
Subject: Torah scroll

Shalo-m uvracha!

I am working on a new book regarding safrus and the sefer Torah geared
towards 6-12th grade for personal and classroom use. I am targeting from
mainstream orthodox to the Hebrew/Sunday school type. I would appreciate
halachically/hashgafically sound input on a few issues:

What is the purpose of the paroches when there already is a set of doors
on the aron kodesh?

What is the purpose of the gartel on the Torah?

Do you have any short stories from seforim/chassidic sources, etc.,
related to the sefer Torah that the targeted youth group would

kol tuv,
Rabbi Yerachmiel Askotzky, certified sofer & examiner
<sofer@...>  www.stam.net  1-888-404-STAM(7826)  718-874-8220


From: Keith Bierman <Keith.Bierman@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:48:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Using digital "public domain" Sefarim

>While a Sefer whose author has been dead for tens if not hundreds of
>years is obviously in the public domain by all secular laws, its keying

and using an automated scanning system? why assume it was done by hand?

>I'm obviously ignoring the Halachic aspect in my comments above, but it

I'm more interested in the Halachic analysis than the answer itself.


From: Steven Oppenheimer <oppy49@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:43:42 -0400
Subject: Washing on a Fast Day

Jonathan Chipman wrote:
>3.  One is not supposed to bathe oneself, at least fully, during a fast
    day, unless there is a compelling reason, e.g., that it is Erev
    Shabbat (as sometime happens with 10 be-Tevet). These last two
    halakhot appaer in O.H. 550.2; see there especaially Mishnah Berurah
    and Be'er Heitev.

IMHO, a closer reading of the sources shows that only a "hot" bath or
"hot" shower are not allowed on the three fast days (even though me'ikor
hadin, according to the law, it is allowed - the custom is that it is
prohibited).  See also Aruch HaShulchan 550:3; also Mo'adai Yeshrun by
Rabbi Aaron Felder.

Only a Ba'al Nefesh should refrain from any type of washing. And the
custom today is that even a Ba'al Nefesh is not strict in these matters
( See Nitei Gavriel, Hilchot Bein HeMitzrim, 8:2, new edition).

If one becomes soiled, he may wash as he normally would. (See Rabbi
Shimon Eider, Laws of the Three Weeks).

While we should take the meaning and the laws of the Fast Days
seriously, we should also not add on extra chumras (stringencies) - See
Shulchan Aruch HaTanya, Hilchot Nizkei Guf VaNefesh, halacha 4 and Rav
Gaviel Zinner's elucidation in Nitei Gavriel cited above.

See also Responsa Ketav Sofer, O. Ch. siman 100, for further reasons to
be lenient.

May our collective introspection, Teshuva (repentance) and study and
observance of Torah bring about the long awaited redemption and usher in
the time when fasts are no longer needed.

Steven Oppenheimer, DDS


End of Volume 43 Issue 37