Volume 44 Number 50
Produced: Sun Aug 29 8:05:54 EDT 2004
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Did the Torah explicitly permit meat?
[David and Toby Curwin]
Vegetarianism (6)
[Immanuel Burton, Yisrael and Batya Medad, Nathan Lamm, Adina
Gerver, chips@eskimo.com, Martin Stern]
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From: David and Toby Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:37:13 +0300
Subject: Did the Torah explicitly permit meat?
> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
> 4. The person believes that killing animals for human consumption is
> wrong i. e. we have no right to put our diet above the right to life
> of other sentient beings
> However the fourth one strikes me as being basically a form of
> neo-paganism and is prohibited to us since the Torah has expressly
> permitted the eating of meat (and commanded it in the case of
> sacrifices); we have no right to be frummer than the Torah
> itself. What do others think about this matter?
I won't go into the entire vegetarian issue, since I'm sure it's been
done before, and will probably be done again. But I don't think #4 is as
much as a concern as you make it out to be.
I think one of the best texts on Judaism's view of eating meat is Sefer
HaIkkarim 3:15. Rav Albo states that "in the killing of animals there is
cruelty, rage and the accustoming oneself to the bad habit of shedding
innocent blood...This is the reason why, though the flesh of certain
animals is good food and suitable for man, God chose to deprive him
(Adam) of the slight good of eating the meat, in order to prevent the
much greater evil which might result therefrom."
He then continues and explains the episode of Kayin and Hevel as being
based around their misunderstandings of the message of God's prohibiting
of meat-eating. (It's very interesting, but too long to quote.) But then
Noach was permitted to eat meat "because he knew that man is superior by
virtue of his reason and can know his Creator and serve Him better than
the animals and can be thankful to God for this privilege [and] his
offering was accepted with favor."
This was the approach for all mankind. "But when the Torah was given to
Israel... God prohibited certain animals which produce coarseness and
ugliness of soul." That explains kashrut.
But then R' Albo continues: "Nay, even the animals that were permitted
were merely a concession to human lust and desire...Thus the Rabbis say,
commenting on the verse, "because thy soul desireth to eat flesh
(Devarim 12:20)" - There is a moral lesson in this expression, namely
that one should not eat flesh unless he has an appetite for it. (Hullin
84a). This shows clearly that the eating of flesh was permitted only
because of necessity. For this reason it was forbidden at the time of
the creation, though it is good for food."
So it's not a question of "being frummer than the Torah itself" but
rather following Chazal who said we should only eat meat if we have a
real desire for it.
-Dave
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From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:12:46 +0100
Subject: RE: Vegetarianism
In Mail.Jewish v44n42, Martin Stern suggested various reasons for
not eating meat, the fourth reason he gave being:
> 4. The person believes that killing animals for human consumption is
> wrong i. e. we have no right to put our diet above the right to life
> of other sentient beings
A suggested explanation given by Martin Stern for this was:
> However the fourth one strikes me as being basically a form of
> neo-paganism and is prohibited to us since the Torah has expressly
> permitted the eating of meat (and commanded it in the case of
> sacrifices); we have no right to be frummer than the Torah
> itself. What do others think about this matter?
I think there's more to it than that. To say that we have no right to
put our diet above the right of life of other sentient beings is to say
that it is not moral to eat animals. And to say that is to say that God
has allowed us to do something not moral, which is something that I
believe cannot be justified in Judaism.
We were taught in school that when one has to give an account of one's
life before the Heavenly Court, one will be asked why one indulged in
forbidden things, and why one refrained from enjoying permitted things.
One of the reasons that a Nazir has to bring a sin offering at the end
of his term is on account of having denied himself the enjoyment of wine
(and other grape products). I think that these two statements show that
if God has permitted something we should enjoy it if possible. If one
does not like the taste of meat, or if one has been traumatised by
having shechitah being done, or one feels it not healthy to eat meat,
then that shouldn't be a problem with regards to not enjoying something
that God has permitted.
As Martin Stern pointed out in his posting, when the Temple sacrifices
are reinstated, there will be a requirement to eat at least a kazyis of
meat at least once a year, namely the Paschal Lamb.
Immanuel Burton.
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From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:27:42 +0200
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
I was a vegetarian for 25 years. I started, because I felt that meat
was "bad for me." I was very strict about it (personality trait I
guess), but I did cook it for the family. Just recently I began to feel
that my body needed meat, so I'm back to eating meat, fish etc.
When I checked it out in terms of halacha, I understood that it was
permitted, as long as it wasn't made into an ideology. As long as one
doesn't make a moral issue out of it; it can be a personal preference.
Batya
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From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:02:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vegetarianism
While I don't subscribe to them (now), I know that there are a number of
other rationales for vegetarianism in addition to those mentioned by Mr.
Stern, and they are rooted in Jewish tradition. I suppose they have
their origin in the idea (mentioned explicitly in Bereishis) that meat
eating was not allowed until Noach, and look forward to a time when we
will once again be on this spiritual level. (This, of course, would
affect korbanot as well, as would other factors.) I'm sure others will
be able to elaborate better than I, but suffice to say that in addition
to the practical/personal reasons listed as acceptable by Mr. Stern,
there are acceptable reasons that do not touch on the idea, certainly
foreign to Judaism, that animals have "rights" equal to man's.
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From: Adina Gerver <gerver@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:32:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Vegetarianism
Martin Stern listed four possible reasons for being a vegetarian, saying
that more reasons would come up in discussion:
> 1. The person does not like the taste of meat
> 2. The person has witnessed animals being slaughtered and feels
> traumatised by the experience
> 3. The person believes that meat eating is not as healthy as a
> vegetarian diet
> 4. The person believes that killing animals for human consumption is
> wrong i. e. we have no right to put our diet above the right to life of
> other sentient beings
It is interesting--the first three categories of vegetarians would
probably say that for them, eating meat is wrong, but not necessarily
for everyone else. The last category of vegetarian would probably say
that eating meat is wrong for everyone.
I can think of two other reasons to be vegetarian, both of which would
cause one to say that eating meat is wrong for everyone, and neither of
which, I believe, is antithetical to a Torah-observant lifestyle.
One is environmental--it takes a lot more energy to raise beef than to
grow soybeans. Forest areas are cleared all over the world to create
grazing land for livestock. If people ate the grain that is fed to
animals, there would be a lot more to go around. "Animal production
facilities" create waste and environmental hazards in many other ways as
well. Wild fish are overfished, and the depletion of any species affects
the entire ocean ecosystem. Someone who is a vegetarian for
environmental reasons might not say that "killing animals is wrong
because we have no right to put our diet above the right to life of
other sentient beings," but that "killing animals is wrong because it
wastes precious natural resources, causes the destruction of rain
forests in South America, and is a less sensible way of feeding a planet
with a burgeoning population." I think that concern about the
environmental impact of eating meat would fit within the range of a
Torah-observant lifestyle, under the category of bat tashchit.
Another is ethical, but not as hard-and-fast as "it is wrong to kill
animals for food," and people who believe this might not be strict
vegetarians. Animals are not treated very well between birth and being
killed for food. They are often kept in small, not very clean
containers. Calves raised to be veal are kept in small pens and kept
weak and undernourished to provide gourmet delicacies for people. Some
people deal with this by only eating free range chicken, for example, or
never eating veal. Others avoid meat entirely. In any case, one
concerned with tsar baalei chayim might want to think about how their
food is treated while it is alive.
>From one who thinks meat is not as healthy as beans and tofu, and is
concerned about the environmental impact of a meat-eating planet, and
prefers not to dwell on thoughts of chickens in small cages, and mostly
avoids meat for another reason entirely (likes ice cream too much to be
fleishig for 6 hours!), but still eats meat on occasion...
Adina Gerver
New York, NY
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From: <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:26:06 -0700
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
Typing as a vegetarian myself ...
(First though, all my references to meat include fowl.)
I agree that a Jewish person would be in trouble if the reason to become
a vegetarian was for moral reasons, so that the person is saying that
they have higher morals than the Torah but I don't think it would
qualify as neo-paganism.
Reason 3 leaves me uncomfortable, unless of course there is a specific
issue being addressed. To me it seems to touch to closely to saying
"Torah says eating meat is not in itself unhealthy but I know better".
But there are 2 more reasons that are possible:
A: a person may believe/think that meat raising is a vast waste of
resources
B: a person may feel that the present way meat animals are treated is
`tzar boLechayim` and apply the RAMA concerning bird feathers in hats to
eating meat.
I strongly disagree that a vegetarian would have problems with Temple
sacrifices. A cohen would probably go pretty hungry but I could not find
a source that says a "kosher vegetarian" would be forced to partake of a
Temple sacrifice, especially if doing so would make one ill , whether
physically or psychically.
I believe that there is another issue with being a vegetarian that
leaves me a bit uneasy, so once a year I do eat meat in order so that it
should not fall into `neder` [btw: anyone have a good English term to
use as a translation of `neder`?] territory.
ps: please, no proofs from Yechezkel to say that animal sacrifices will
not be brought. Part of Yechezkel's description of 3rd Bayis included a
room lined with meat hooks.
pps: Rav Kook was *not* a vegetarian.
-rp
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:52:59 +0100
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism
on 27/8/04 11:01 am, I wrote:
> It is the placing of animals on the same level of importance as human
> beings that suggests a form of neo-paganism.
This is perhaps a slight exaggeration though there are some animal
rights activists who, given the choice, would rather see a human die
than let an animal suffer even slight discomfort; I can't believe that
any Torah Jew would even consider this.
I have received a fair amount of off-line comment on this topic, much of
which assumed I was suggesting that Vegetarianism as such was
inconsistent with the Torah. That misunderstanding might have arisen
from a lack of clarity on my part so I would like to emphasise that that
was not what I was saying. Rather I was querying whether the philosophy
underlying its adoption might be so. In my original posting I listed
four possible reasons and two further ones have come up since in the
off-line discussion:
1. The person does not like the taste of meat
2. The person has witnessed animals being slaughtered and feels traumatised
by the experience
3. The person believes that meat eating is not as healthy as a vegetarian
diet
4. The person believes that killing animals for human consumption is wrong
i.e. we have no right to put our diet above the right to life of other
sentient beings
5. The person considers that raising animals for human consumption is a
waste of natural resources, i.e. more human food can be produced from the
land if it is not used to grow animal fodder
6. The person considers that vegetarianism was the original Divine plan
and permission to eat meat was a concession to human weakness, i.e.
vegetarianism is somehow analogous to keeping 'glatt kosher'
Where the motivation is personal as opposed to 'moral', I can see no
problem so long as we do not have sacrifices which have to be eaten
(reasons 1,2,3 and 5). However, motivation 4 seems to me to contradict
the Torah which puts the needs of humans above those of animals, and
motivation 6 appears questionable and merits further discussion.
Martin Stern
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End of Volume 44 Issue 50