Volume 44 Number 51
                    Produced: Mon Aug 30  5:56:40 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bagrut Exam
         [Orrin Tilevitz]
         [Nathan Lamm]
Brit - kvatter/in
         [Elozor Reich]
Dairy Labeling
         [Eli Turkel]
ebay and Shabbat
         [Joel Rich]
Kimmel Live
         [Binyomin Segal]
Ktav Ashuri
         [Robert Israel]
Living Torah Museum
         [Andy Goldfinger]
Looking for a Rashi
         [Neil Normand]
Melody for Rosh Hashana Mincha
         [Stuart Feldhamer]
New Mother Not Leaving House?
         [Gershon Dubin]
Pareve Chocolate
         [Y. Askotzky]
Passuk for Leib
R. Na'eh (2)
         [Elozor Reich, Menashe Elyashiv]


From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bagrut Exam

The daughter of a friend is taking the bagrut exam (in Israel) and in
that connection had to read a book called "Bayit Neeman Ishut Umishpacha
behet'em letochnit halimudim levatei sefer tichonim".  My friend
complains that the positions set out in the book--all set out as cut and
dried, on such issues as tzniyut, taharat hamishpacha, dating, and
women's hair covering fall somewhere between the Taliban and the
ayatollahs, advocating at one point that married women cover their
faces.  My friend, who by Israeli standards is on the left fringe of
Orthodoxy (she wears pants, for example) is concerned that this will
turn off her daughter to religious Judaism.  Can anyone suggest a book
(in Hebrew) that deals with these issues in a more modern, balanced way?

Orrin Tilevitz


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:04:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Baseball

The Staten Island (New York City) Yankees (a Minor League professional
team, hard to explain to non-Americans, I suppose) are owned, either in
whole or in part, by religious Jews. This fact is written up every now
and then in the local Jewish papers, and I'm pretty sure there's kosher
food and a minyan in the owner's box.


From: Elozor Reich <lreich@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:52:45 +0100
Subject: Brit - kvatter/in

Jack Gross <ibijbgross@...>
>>From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
>>Kvatter/in is a Yiddish word. Is there an equivalent word in Hebrew, or
>>do only Ashkenazim have this custom?
>My conjecture on the origin of the term:
>The childs mother needs to convey him to the father, but (if the Brit is
>on time) cannot hand anything to him directly.  So a couple (engaged, or
>otherwide able to serve) is designated -- she (die Kvatterin) takes the
>child from the mother, hands the child to her partner (der Kvatter), who
>hands the baby to the father.
>Since four parties are involved, perhaps "kvatter" mean on who performs
>one-quarter of the operation.

All nice drush, but kvatter is a corruption of (the German equivalent)

Elozor Reich


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:25:30 +0300
Subject: Dairy Labeling

> I'm sure that's true.  People dealing with extreme sensitivity to dairy
> products -- Jewish or not -- now understand that a Parve hechsher is a
> much better indicator of safety for them than the words "non-dairy" on
> the label.  At least in the US, I am surprised from a liability
> perspective that this isn't required -- unless the laws and regulations
> on bakeries implicitly assume that all bakery products are _dairy_ if
> not otherwise specified.

One difference is if the equipment has been used for dairy but there are
no dairy ingedients. It is non-dairy but not completely parve as it
cannot be eaten directly together with meat.  There used to be a
designation DE to signify dairy equipment but non-dairy but that has
fallen by the wayside.

Almost all national candies today have a dairy hechscher even when they
don't seem to be dairy. My suspicion is that many of them are only DE
which means they can be eaten after a meat meal. However, I don't think
the kashrut agencies give out that information publically.

Eli Turkel


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:49:07 EDT
Subject: Re: ebay and Shabbat

      Rabbi Heinemann's heter was based on the fact that web
      transactions on shabbat are not actaully registered on saturday
      and thus there is no kinyan kesef until monday.  therefore, you
      dont have mekach umemkar.  ratcheting up a bid on shabbat lacks
      the requisite kinyan kesef.

      Jacob Sasson

and is someone keeping track since I would guess 24/7 transaction
closing is not far off?

Joel Rich


From: Binyomin Segal <binyomin@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:15:48 -0400
Subject: Kimmel Live

Hi all -

I'm away from home on vacation, so I don't have my regular routine (or
my regular computer, this is coming by way of the local library) but I
caught a short piece last nite that I thought might be interesting to
the group.

It seems there is a lubavitch musician who is making a concerted (no pun
intended) effort to reach out to the non-jewish world and inspire them
towards spirituality. He was on the Kimmel show last nite. I only saw a
short part of the interview. Was wondering if anyone else saw it, and
what people thought.

The one interesting thing I did see, was when asked if there were any
restrictions on him based on his beliefs, he mentioned that he couldn't
do a show on Friday nites. One of the other guests asked him "What if
it's a really good gig?"  Quickly "really good" got defined as 4 million
dollars, and he affirmed that even for 4 million dollars he could not do
a show on Friday nite.



From: Robert Israel <israel@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:19:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Ktav Ashuri

Mark Symons <msymons@...> wrote:
|Martin Stern wrote:
|> The modern Assyrian Christians are in no way connected to the ancient
|> Assyrians but are the remainder of the (if I am not mistaken Nestorian)
|> Christian community of Mesopotamia from pre-Arab times who used Aramaic
|> as their liturgical (and previously spoken) language. Thus their use of
|> our current script is not surprising and has no relevance to this
|> discussion.
|An interpreter I have worked with who describes himself as Assyrian,
|tells me that they revere the prophet Jonah, and that they observe an
|annual 3-day fast.

You might look at
which discusses the links between the present-day Assyrians and the
ancient ones, and also mentions Jonah.  It seems, however, that the
story of Jonah was not passed down among the Assyrians from ancient
times, but was taken from the bible after they adopted Christianity.

Robert Israel                                <israel@...>
Department of Mathematics        http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2


From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:53:30 -0400
Subject: Living Torah Museum

I recently visited the "Living Torah Museum" in Borough Park, Brooklyn,
New York, USA.  This is a small but extremely impressive museum of
antiquities and artifacts that is run by Rabbi Shimon Deutsch.  It's web
site is http://torahmuseum.com/index.html

This museum is well worth a trip to Borough Park.  Rabbi Deutsch is both
a Talmid Chacham and a scholar of the ancient world.  (He can read 11
ancient languages).  He has artifacts that help in the understanding of
mishnayos and gemaras.  In addition, he has more modern items, such as a
verified photograph of the Chofetz Chaim in middle age.

By itself, the museum is impressive.  However, it is best to try to make
an appointment for a tour by Rabbi Deutsch.  This is an unforgettable
experience.  We spent over 2 hours with him, and only covered about 3/4
of the first room (there are 6 rooms).  We intend to return.

-- Andy Goldfinger


From: Neil Normand <nachmanyak@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:44:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Looking for a Rashi

A belated thank you for linking the audio tape of the Rav's shiur.  Avi,
there are two very similar pesukim like that in sefer devarim.  The
first one is in the end of VaetChanan, with no Rashi.  The second one is
in Re'eh, I believe perek 14, pasuk 2 where the rashi I was looking for
is.  Thanks again.



From: Stuart Feldhamer <Stuart.Feldhamer@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:55:30 -0400
Subject: RE: Melody for Rosh Hashana Mincha

> From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
> Re the Ashkenaz Nusach (as in melody) for Rosh Hashana Mincha: what I
> am familiar with is to do the Shabbat Mincha melody for ashrei, uva
> l'tsion, chazi kaddish, avot, g'vurot, kedusha till yimloch, and to
> move in to the Yamim Noraim melody only from either yimloch or L'dor
> vador.
> Could M'viney Nusach please comment on this?

I am not an expert, but I think the correct melody to use for the
beginning of Mincha is not the standard Shabbos melody but rather the
melody used for pseukei d'zimrah on Rosh Hashanah. Then the chazan would
move to the standard Yamim Noraim melody (as you call it) upon beginning
the chazarat hashatz. 

> And also re Shabbat Mincha itself - I have heard 2 versions for avot,
> g'vurot and kedusha - 1 is to do these in the standard weekday nusach
> (and to use the shabbat mincha nusach before and after), the other is
> to also do these in the Shabbat mincha nusach. Which is more
> "authentic"?

I think the latter is more "authentic". I think the former is partially
because of people who can't remember the correct tune until they get to
the part when everyone helps them out ("l'dor



From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:05:47 GMT
Subject: New Mother Not Leaving House?

From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
>> Also, could you please clarify what you mean by <<< until she has gone
>> to shul ... when her husband is a chiyuv >>>
>Do you mean that (A) new mothers do not go out until the husband has a
>yahrzeit or has to say "hagomel" or other similar situation, or (B) the
>wife's recovery and arrival at shul is a big enough simcha to justify
>entitling the husband to an aliyah, or (C) the practice in your
>community is for the husband to say "hagomel" on behalf of the new

I don't know what the original poster meant, but there is a chiyuv
aliyah for a husband the first time his wife comes to shul after giving
birth, which is kind of backward from what you're inferring from his



From: Y. Askotzky <sofer@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:31:10 +0200
Subject: Pareve Chocolate

It is known that many pareve chocolates have traces of milk in
them. They may be pareve but could affect someone with very sensitive
allergies to milk. I understand that it is dependant upon the policy of
the hechsher as to whether the machines are throughly cleaned in between
standard milk chocolate runs and the dark chocolate runs. If I am not
mistaken, and it can be easily clarified, one of the differences between
Megadim and Elite, both made by Elite in the same factory is that the
rabbanut doesn't require the thorough cleaning while the Badatz does. My
info. is based on vague recollection and I will try to verify it.

kol tuv,

Yerachmiel Askotzky, certified sofer & examiner
<sofer@...>  www.stam.net  1-888-404-STAM(7826)  718-874-8220


From: Anonymous
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:53:12
Subject: Passuk for Leib

One of my best friends' Hebrew name is Leib (Lamed-Yud-Yud-Beit).  He is
looking for the right passuk he should say at the end of the amida,
beginning with Lamed and finishing by Beit.  I could not find one for
him in the few different siddur editions I have.

Would someone have a suggestion?
Thanks in advance,


From: Elozor Reich <lreich@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:04:51 +0100
Subject: R. Na'eh

>>the Sephardim have no real source for holding anything other than R'
>>Chaim Na'eh (the larger shiurim tend to be an Ashkenazi thing).
>Somehow, I think that Rav Naeh was himself Ashkenazi.  I am fairly sure
>that his son (or grnadson?) was our neighbor in Bayit Vegan.  Can any
>listmate correct me or confirm?
>Yisrael Medad

I had the privillege of visiting R' Na'eh (in Jerusalem's Bucharimm
zone) and even was at his levayo (not long after that of the Chazon
Ish). He was a Russian Chabad Chasid.

The story was told that someone once asked R' Na'eh, "Who is greater,
you are the Chazon Ish? Of course the Chazon Ish" was his reponse.

"Whose estimation of the Amo etc is correct, yours or that of the Chazon
Ish?  I Definitely got it right !"  Well, said his questioner, "Aren't
you contradicting yourself?"

"Not at all. A mumcheh ledovor echod [expert in one area - Mod.] can
ofter do better than anybody"

Eloxor Reich

From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:53:04 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: R. Na'eh

In MJ 44/40 Yisrael Medad asked if Rabbi H. Na'eh was Askenazi or
Sefaradi. He was Ashenazi (Habad?). He wrote some books on measurements,
he based his system on the known arab countries system of the "darham",
which has been the same since the Geonims period. It was used by all in
Eretz Israel prior to the Hazon Ish.


End of Volume 44 Issue 51