Volume 45 Number 28
                    Produced: Wed Oct 20  8:01:22 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bachur term in Novi
Bread labelling
         [Yehonatan Chipman]
Chumrot at Other's Expense
         [David Maslow]
Not benefiting from work done by Jew on Shabbat
         [Immanuel Burton]
Orach Hashulcan vs. Mishna Berurah
         [D. Rabinowitz]
Sephardi Yom Kippur
         [Ken Bloom]
Simchas Torah - Shelosh Esrai Middos
State of YU (4)
         [Joshua Seidemann, Stan Tenen, Nathan Lamm, Janice Gelb]


From: <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 05:16:35 -0700
Subject: Re: re: Bachur term in Novi

> This reminds me of a shiur I heard many years ago at Yeshivat Kerem
> B'Yavneh given by Rav Rivlin, the mashgiach ruchani.  He used to give
> a Thursday night shiur on the Parashah and sometimes on Nach.  One
> shiur discussed common ways that the words in Nach have be
> mistranslated and he focused specifically on the words "Na'ar" and
> "Bachur" which are usually translated as teenager or youth.
> However he showed us otherwise from the story of Mefiboshet in sefer
> Shemuel Bet where first in chapter 4, Mefiboshet is 5 years old.  Then
> [...]

Whoa, what about Dovid himself? He is referred to as "Na`ar" when he
confronts Golyas, yet according to many (if not a preponderance of most)
he was about 27 years old.


From: Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:47:09 +0200
Subject: Re:  Bread labelling

In v45 n 16, Elcya Weiss wrote:
 <<  Returning to our home store, I was pleasantly surprised that all the
Wonder Bread products I looked at (including sliced whole wheat Wonder
Bread - a contradiction in terms?) did in fact have the Space Needle K
and were marked Parve as well. Turns out, I had checked the labels of
just about every local bakery represented in the bread aisle......but
never once considered even picking up the Wonder Bread to look!
Will wonders never cease...>>

At the risk of being labeled a health food nut, I feel compelled to
point out that, while Wonder Bread may be "Needle-kosher," it is perhaps
one of the least healthy foods on the market, being essentailly a source
of empty calories.  With the awareness in recent years of the epidemic
proportions of obesity in the United States and throughout much of the
world, accompnaied by the increase in type II diabetes, beginning ever
younger, people are becoming increasingly aware of the dangers of foods
having a high glycemic index (typically, foods with a high level of
non-complex carbohydrates, whose natural sugars are absorbed rapidly
into the blood stream.  This often leads to hunger pangs and cravings
for more food two or so hours down the road, when the suger rush they
produce is met by a counter-rush of insulin, causing thre illusion of
hunger, and repetaing thre cycle).  Bleached refined white bread is one
of the main culprits in all this.

Of course, I have the luxury of being able to talk this way because I
live in Jerusalem, where you have to search long and hard to find
non-kosher bread and, increasingly, even to find something that isn't
mehadrin.  This includes a wide variety of delicious whole grain breads,
including hallot for shabbat.

Nevertheless, even in the great state of Washington, shomer nafsho
yirhak mehem. Especially for the sake of your children, whose eating
habits are still being shaped (maybe?).

   Yehonatan Chipman 


From: David Maslow <maslowd@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:13:34 -0400
Subject: Chumrot at Other's Expense

Jeff (MJ 45:20) repeated Eitan's comment that he had heard that Rav
Moshe was strict at home with regard to yashan but would routinely eat
breakfast at MTJ even though the Yeshiva was not.  He then told of
hearing a public shiur given by Rav Reuven Feinstein in which Rav Reuven
said that Rav Moshe was makpid on yashan, "but not that makpid," and
gave an example of his eating "regular food" so as not to be singled

Can anyone explain why yashan is considered, in the US at least, as a
chumrah by large segments of the Orthodox world, including the major
kashrut supervisory organizations?  Clearly even Rav Moshe did not give
it the highest priority, which is puzzling considering it is mentioned
in the Torah.

David E. Maslow


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:07:30 +0100
Subject: RE: Not benefiting from work done by Jew on Shabbat

In Mail.Jewish v45n24 it was written:

> They hold that it is not a chumrah, rather it is completely assur to
> use "Jewish" electricity on Shabbos, so "marit ayin" would apply.

I had a chat with an electrical engineer about power stations, and he
seemed to think that they generally run themselves without input from
the staff, and that the main reason they are there is in case of an
emergency or if an alarm of some sort rings.  This would seem to imply
that the chances of any Jewish employee in the power station doing any
melachah on Shabbos directly connected to electricity production are in
the favour of not having to be concerned, so why is it an issue?  And if
it is a genuine problem, why is the avoidance of mains electricity on
Shabbos not more widespread in Israel?

And if one does want to take this to the nth degree, how does one know
that all the employees in power stations outside Israel are not Jewish?

Immanuel Burton

[I think it would helpful if one of the members of the list could
possibly put together a summary of the basic halachot underlying this
discussion. By that I mean:
    What type of actions cause something to be forbidden to a
Jew on the same Shabbat that the action occured
    What type of actions cause something to be forbidden to a Jew even
after Shabbat is over
    What level of certainty is required for the above rules to come into
play (e.g. requires a majority probability that a Jew did the action,
requires a certainty that a Jew did the action etc)

I think this will help focus the discussion on what is required by
Halacha, what may not be required but may be a reasonable chumra and
what might not be reasonable at all. Mod]


From: D. Rabinowitz <rwdnick@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Orach Hashulcan vs. Mishna Berurah

I have heard at times two comments regarding the Orach HaShulchan
vs. the Mishna Berurah 1)the Orach haShulchon was more accepted amongst
Rabbis than the Mishna Berurah b) there was a period of time that
(perhaps in part due to 1)) it was more common to follow the Orach
haShulcon over the Mishna Berura Are there any printed sources sources
for either or these?

Dan Rabinowitz


From: Ken Bloom <kabloom@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:07:23 -0700
Subject: Re: Sephardi Yom Kippur

Martin Stern <md.stern@...> wrote on  Sun, 17 Oct 2004
08:04:44 +0100:
> > At least some Sephardic communities say Aveinu Malkeinu even on
> > Shabbat, even on Shabbat Shuva.
> Why 'even on Shabbat Shuva'? On what other shabbat could Aveinu
> Malkeinu be said?

Shabbat Yom Kippur or Shabbat Rosh HaShanah. So "even on Shabbat
Shuva" means Yom Kippur and Rosh HaShanah aren't special in this
regard when they fall on Shabbat.

[I would like to note here that Martin had sent in a revised posting
that ommitted the above comment, after he understood that the above was
what was being said, but I sent out his original posting rather than the
revised one. Mod.]


From: <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 05:16:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: Simchas Torah - Shelosh Esrai Middos

> > Can anyone quote a definitive source as to why, of all the Yomim
> > Tovim (with the exception of Yom Kippur other than when they fall
> > on Shabbos), Simchas Torah is the only one on which the Shelosh
> > Esrai Middos and the following Tefillah are omitted prior to taking
> > out the Sifrei Torah?

Maybe because in the siddur the leining occurs right after `HoShana` and
there is a discordant juxtaposition between the `HoShana` and 'Shelosh
Esrai Middos' ?



From: Joshua Seidemann <quartertones@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:05:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of YU

*sigh* -- the article would benefit from context.  It would also benefit
from accuracy.  IMHO, certain of the written product about which the
author complains might have benefitted from skillful editing -- not to
hide or repress any ideas, but to present them in the most accurate way
-- "teal" is sometimes a better word than "greenish."

I could write essays about YU, but I doubt they would interest anyone,
much -- rather than engage in my own opinionated reflections, I'll note
that YU is enjoying healthy enrollment and interest -- people vote with
their feet, and the institution seems to be a healthy alternative in a
competitive marketplace.

From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:57:10 -0400
Subject: Re: State of YU

I'd like to greatly thank Janice Gelb for this link.

In my opinion, discussing the author's ideas in this essay is of
importance for Jewish survival, and we should be discussing it here.

Many of the problems I've had in getting people to merely look at what
I'm proposing, trace back to the sort of thinking that the author of
this essay is discussing.

I encourage every reader of m-j to click on Janice's link, and read the


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:14:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: State of YU

I read the article in question a while back. A few points:

1. The article is riddled with simple factual errors that even people
not in YU at the moment, let alone a student, should realize. Many of
these bear directly on the thesis of the whole article, and so it should
be judged in that light.

2. The author is well known for writing pieces such as this. Apparently,
there's some personal history/agenda here that's not really touched on
in the piece itself.

3. Most importantly, people have been bemoaning "the end of YU" from
various angles for decades. It hasn't happened. From a personal
perspective, the complaints are always exaggerated. On Sunday night, I
heard a talk by Richard Joel, president of YU. He was asked specifically
about this point, and he gave numerous examples of how civil discourse
is at YU, and how news reports (such as this one) blow things well out
of proportion or even reality.

Just to give one example: When Mr. Joel was chosen as president, there
was actually a Tehillim rally on campus led by the Roshei Yeshiva. And
yet, within a short amount of time, at his inauguration, all of them
quite proudly led the academic procession. Give people a chance to talk,
and conflict tends to disappear. Of course, lack of conflict doesn't
sell newspapers or magazines, even the online variety- hence this

Nachum Lamm

From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:02:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: State of YU

> I read the article in question a while back. A few points:

The above points are interesting but without more supporting detail they
are a bit difficult to judge. I am not asking for lashon hora details
here, but trying to get more information about the accuracy or lack
thereof of the story, which provided quite a bit of supporting detail.

-- Janice


End of Volume 45 Issue 28