Volume 47 Number 67
                    Produced: Thu Apr 14 21:00:38 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Children with Problems
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
         [Martin Stern]
Dessert as part of Seuda
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Fast or Siyum
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
grammar and SA
         [Ben Katz]
Jewish source for phrase
         [Reuben Rudman]
Jewish source for phrase from Shakespeare
         [Ben Katz]
Lubavitch and Shtreimel
         [Nathan Lamm]
Mashiv Haruach Umorid Hagashem/Hageshem (2)
         [Matthew Pearlman, Ira L. Jacobson]
Pope (4)
         [c.halevi, Irwin Weiss, <MSDratch@...>, Mike Gerver]
Pronounciation / Siddurs
         [Perry Zamek]
Speedy tephilah
         [Evan Rock]
Tazria-Mezora  Seforno


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:24:30 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Children with Problems

The smaller the school/heder, or the more group affliated the
school/heder is, the chances of a child with special needs to receive
help - declines.  My wife tested a 11 year old from a top heder. He had
almost no reading abilities! But, he passed from grade to grade...


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:40:36 +0100
Subject: Re: Chiyuv

on 12/4/05 11:09 am, <bernieavi@...> (Rabbi Ed Goldstein) wrote:
> when I went to Yeshiva and camp I was usually shatz because
> I was the FASTEST there was.  My son in law says my [present] slowness is
> due to my new minhag of actually reciting the davening word for word.

Is there any other legitimate way of davenning?

Martin Stern


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:44:02 +0200
Subject: Dessert as part of Seuda


As the daf yomi has again 'met' the sugya of desserts, I would like to
ask the collective memory a question.

It is generally accepted that desserts require a bracha of their own and
are not included in the general Hamotzi that covers the meal. However, I
am fairly certain that at some point I heard of an opinion that in
today's world, the modern "table customs" (which in the time of Chaza"l
determined a lot of the halachot) have changed, and this is one of them.

According to this opinion, since in our time it is assumed that all
"seudot" will have a dessert course, therefore the dessert itself has
de-facto become another item that is served "machamat haseuda" - a
direct result of eating the bread meal.  Following this logic, it is no
longer proper in our times and culture to make a new bracha on the

Has anyone else come across this opinion, and if so, whose is it?

Thank you,
Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:11:55 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Fast or Siyum

I guess the siyum for Shabbat will be held at night to avoid the
problem.  BTW, this year taanit bechorot is not on erev Pesah. Should
one fast? If the reason for not fasting on erev Pesah is because it
would be hard to make the seder, this year should one fast? But, if so,
the early fast would be more important than the real one! R. Pesah Frank
said fast, R.  Kook said no.


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:26:34 -0500
Subject: Re: grammar and SA

>From: Eli Turkel <eliturkel@...>
>As to their knowledge of grammar there is the letter of Maharshal where
>he writes that the Ramah should spend more time learning grammar rather

         This reminds me of the Abravanel who takes Yirmiyahu (yes, that
Yirmiyahu) to task for faulty grammar!

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.


From: Reuben Rudman <rudman@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:19:08 +0300
Subject: Jewish source for phrase

Question was asked: "To thine own self be true." Looking for a Rabbinic
saying which expresses the idea that first one must be honest with one's

Answer: The phrase you are looking for is: k'shot atz'm'cha v'achar kach
k'shot a'chei'rim.  This can be paraphrased in translation as: First be
true to (or - honest with) yourself and then you can criticize others.
If you only want the first part of this phrase, I guess you could say
(as I have heard it said): k'shot atz'm'cha.

It is found in: Baba Metzia 107b and Baba Batra 60b tractates in the
Talmud Bavli.


From: Yakir <yakirhd@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:10:08 +0200
Subject: re: Jewish source for phrase from Shakespeare

On this topic, even though its a while after Purim:

I have long believed that Hamlet's famous soliloquy "To be or not to be,
that is the question" is in fact a summary of the seifa (final part) of
the first Mishna in Masechet Rosh HaShana.

-- Yakir


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:30:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Karaties

>From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
>The Karaties do have Purim! See their website at www.karaim.net

of course they do!  It's Biblical!

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:31:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Lubavitch and Shtreimel

Is it possible the Rebbe wished the shtreimel as a sign that he was the
successor, and didn't see a need for it once he was "confirmed?"


From: Matthew Pearlman <Matthew.Pearlman@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:03:24 +0100
Subject: Mashiv Haruach Umorid Hagashem/Hageshem

Ira L. Jacobson notes "The proof of the use of the pausal form is that
in morid hatal the tet is qemutza (the pausal form)".

Rav Kaminetsy in Emet L'Yaakov on the Chumash (I can't remember the
exact location but it is the first time that 'atah' appears with a
stress on the first syllable but with a patach, rather than a kamatz
under the aleph) argues strongly for the non-pausal geshem, but pausal

His reasoning is that morid hageshem is connected to the next phrases
mechalkel chayyim etc, but morid hatol is not.


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:18:58 +0300
Subject: Re: Mashiv Haruach Umorid Hagashem/Hageshem

If his reasoning is halakhic, then who am I to demur.

But if he is commenting from a linguistic standpoint, then I must say
that the terms are entirely parallel.  And furthermore, they are the
final words of the parallel prayers, Tefilat Geshem and Tefilat Tal.  If
he had perhaps pointed out that the Miqra has no case of geshem in the
pausal form, as it does have with tal, he might have succeeded in making
a linguistic point (might have).

The Karlin-Stolin Hassidim, by the way, pronounce tal with a patah in
"Morid Hatal."  They are quite consistent, as many others are not.

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: c.halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:17:47 -0500
Subject: Pope

Shalom, All:

Some people are doubting that the late Pope John Paul II told a Catholic
family to find the Jewish survivors of a Jewish child who had been
entrusted to them during WW II. I've seen the story reported in several
credible media.

An easy find for me was to go to the website of the Jewish Telegraphic
Agency (www.jta.org), which named the saved Jew as Stanley Berger,
currently of Connecticut. Full story at
http://jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=15276&intcategoryid=5 .
(The JTA is similar to the Associated Press for Jewish weekly

I also found the same story at the CBS News web site, at

Kol Tuv,
Charles Chi (Yeshaya) Halevi

From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:25:57 -0400
Subject: Pope

Here is a link to Rabbi Mitchell Wohlberg's D'var Torah on the Pope. 
(large Modern Orthodox shul in Baltimore)


Irwin E. Weiss, Esq.

From: <MSDratch@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:24:13 EDT
Subject: Re: Pope

Re: where the Pope told a family after the churban not to have the
Jewish child who had lived with them baptized but to let him return to
his family...

<rubin20@...> writes: FWIW, Citizen Koch, a biography of former NYC
mayor Ed Koch has Ed Koch recounting the story to the pope, who
declaimed any such incident and <FriedmanJ@...> states: "The story is
true, and he wouldn't let them baptize the children, either.  The expert
on the Pope is Yaffa Eliach. Her exhibit on him is in Cinncinnati."

The (then child) subject of the story lives today in Stamford, CT and is
an Orthodox Jew.

From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:21:43 EDT
Subject: Pope

The story about the late Pope, as a young parish priest, refusing to
baptize the Jewish boy whose parents had been killed, is told in Yaffa
Eliach's Hasidic Tales of the Holocaust (Oxford University Press, 1982),
in the story "The Merit of a Young Priest," on pages 142-147. She gives
names, dates, and footnotes with references to contemporary newspaper
articles. Her information is based on personally interviewing the boy it
happened to.

What all this documentation clearly shows is that the boy was entrusted
by his parents to a gentile couple in Poland, and the parents did not
survive, the gentile couple got in touch with his relatives in the US
and Canada after the war, and the boy was adopted by the relatives and
raised as an observant Jew. The whole story about wanting to baptize the
boy, and the Pope refusing to do it, is based only on a letter, written
by the Polish gentile woman who saved him (and whom he kept in touch
with), in 1978, right after the Pope was elected. So it's possible that
she was making up the story. Still, if the Pope was indeed a parish
priest in her neighborhood, in 1946 (and I suppose Yaffa Eliach could
have, and would have, checked this out), then the story is plausible.

The fact that the Pope did not remember the incident when Ed Koch asked
him about it is not very strong evidence against it having occurred.
After all, this was probably 40 years later, and the Pope probably would
not have thought the incident very important at the time it happened.

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Perry Zamek <perryza@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:00:51 +0200
Subject: Re: Pronounciation / Siddurs

Carl Singer asks:

>No siddur in my collection has any variant on the spelling of the first
>two words of kaddish -- nonetheless it seems quite common for people to
>pronounce those words with a long "a" -- Yis-ka-dale v' Yis-ka-daysh --
>any insights?

 From memory, it's an explicit statement in the Mishnah Berurah (I don't
recall where), who writes that the first two words of the kaddish are
Hebrew and should be pronounced with a tzere.

He also notes in the same place that one should be careful to pronounce
the gimel in yis-ga-dale / yitgadel (note my correction to the above).

Perry Zamek


From: Evan Rock <theevanrock@...>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:06:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Speedy tephilah

In a minyan of ten men, when the tenth man cannot keep up with the
speedy davening pace of the other nine, is his participation valid?

When the tenth has not had a chance to recite a tephilah fully, can he
and should he respond "amen" to the shaliakh tzibur?

I for one find most tephilah b'tzibur to be a reading race!  A race I
cannot keep up with nor wish to keep up with.  This reminds me of a
situation at a summer camp when I was a madrikh. One of our campers a
recent bar-mitvah bukher very much wanted to become a shaliakh
tzibur. He was given the opportunity, however at the end of tephilot I
had to ask him why was he going so fast? He responded innocently that he
was following the formula that he had perceived as being the rule, he
chanted the first line and counted to ten and recited the last sentence
in the paragraph!  Can this be going on a larger scale?

Evan Rock


From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:27:28 EDT
Subject: Stereotyping

>>>>This is a sort of spin-off from a Pope story I once heard in high
school (Chofetz Chaim, Forest Hills) that a fat pope is better than a
very thin one I guess my Rebbe was comparing Pius 12 vs. John 24 in that
a fat one would be jolly, and life loving and therefore more humanistic
and ultimately, less of an anti-Jew whereas a Pope that starved himself
and treated his body with an outlook of unworldliness and pain would be
more inclined.<<<

This rebbe of yours, think about how he was teaching you to stereotype
people, a major, major no-no.

Fat people are jolly and thin people are grumps. Women can't learn
because they suffer from kallos rosh...And men don't know how to
multitask and Black people are natural musicians and Asians are smart
and Indians are computer whizzes and all gentiles are antisemtes, and
native Americans and Irish are drunk and Italians are wife beaters, and
Jews are stingy and control the world.

See the problem he created for you?

If you believe him, I have a bridge to sell you.


From: .cp. <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 8:37:30 -0700
Subject: Tazria-Mezora  Seforno

Anyone know why the Seforno wrote that the clothes got the spots (Nega)
prior to the house?  Was he just not being particular in his ordering?


End of Volume 47 Issue 67