Volume 47 Number 87
                    Produced: Wed May 11 21:52:20 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

18th of Iyar / Lag B'Omer
         [David Eisen]
Ana B'cho'ach (2)
         [Mark Symons, Joseph I. Lauer]
Be'safa ve'rura
         [Abe Lebowitz]
Fasting on Erev Pesach
Origin and meaning of the kitul on Pesach
         [Dachman, Abraham]
Proposed new US Daylight Savings Time Rules (4)
         [.cp., Tzvi Stein, Eliyahu Shiffman, Mordechai]
         [Martin Stern]
Reality of the World
         [Miriam Weed]
Tefillah b'tzibbur- any physical/medical limitations
         [Stephen Colman]
Yirmiyahu and Grammar
         [Matthew Pearlman]


From: David Eisen <davide@...>
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 05:15:15 +0200
Subject: 18th of Iyar / Lag B'Omer

What is the earliest source identifying the 18th of Iyar (AKA Lag
B'Omer) as the yahrtzeit of R. Shimon B. Yohai?

I find it a bit surprising that R. Yosef Karo does not identity Lag
B'Omer with Rashb"i's yahrtzeit and only refers to the date as marking
the cessation of the period during which R. Aqiva's students died (S"A
O"C 493:2) given the sheer proximity between Mt. Meron and Tzefat.

B'virkat HaTorah,
David Eisen
12 Omer


From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:38:24 +1000
Subject: Ana B'cho'ach

Yisrael Medad writes:
>Brian Wiener points out an error in the Artscroll siddur at Kabbalat
>Shabbat in Ana BeChoach, in the second line,
  >'kabel rinat, am'cha sag'venu,'. Quite clearly, the comma should be
  >after am'cha; 'kabel rinat am'cha, sag'venu'
>it would seem so but I recall very, very vaguely that the poem is to be
>recited always in two-word groups for a Kabbalistic reason.  I will try
>to check but maybe someone else heard that?

The commentary in the ArtScroll Siddur itself (p 315) states that the
Kabbalists teach that it should be divided into phrases of 2 words each,
but that their translation follows the division indicated by a simple
reading of the phrases (eg "with the strength of Your right hand's

Mark Symons
Melbourne, Australia

From: Joseph I. Lauer <josephlauer@...>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:29:50 -0400
Subject: Ana B'cho'ach

    In MJ 47:83 Yisrael Medad states with regard to the punctuation of
Ana BeChoach of Kabbalat Shabbat in the Artscroll siddur that he
"recall[s] very, very vaguely that the poem is to be recited always in
two-word groups for a Kabbalistic reason."

    The ArtScroll Siddur's commentary states in part, "The Kabbalists
teach that it should be divided into phrases of two words each, but our
translation follows the division indicated by a simple reading of the
phrases."  See, e.g., The Complete ArtScroll Siddur, Nusach Sefard,
p. 43 (commentary to Ana BeChoach in the Korbonot section of Shacharit).

    Unfortunately, the commentary does not supply any information as to
the reason or reasons for this division of the words.  Interestingly,
though, while the above edition of the ArtScroll Siddur punctuates each
line of the Ana BeChoach of Kabbalat Shabbat (p. 348), it does not
punctuate the lines of Ana BeChoach in the Korbonot sections of
Shacharit (p. 43) and Minchah (pp. 252, 546), or in Sefirat HaOmer
(p. 316), other than at the end of each line.

    Joseph I. Lauer
    Brooklyn, New York 


From: <aileb@...> (Abe Lebowitz)
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 21:06:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Be'safa ve'rura

I'm sorry for posting this so late but I find it hard to keep up to date
with all the prolific MJers.

Brian Wiener <brian@...> wrote:

> Before even beginning any research, for years I have had a problem
> with the'be'safa ve'rura u've'neima: kedusha kulam..' etc format. It
> just does not ring true.

I agree.  But in all the discussion I have seen so far no one has 
mentioned the Italian nusach which solves a number of the 
problems.  It is:  

besafa berurah, uvin'imah uvikdushah, kulam....

Abe Lebowitz (Jerusalem)                         <aileb@...>


From: <Klugerman@...>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 06:58:20 EDT
Subject: Re: Fasting on Erev Pesach

Eliyahu KiTov in his haggadah shel Pesach relates the minhag among some
sephardim apparently during the late middle ages who ate the egg after
kiddush of the seder, before the Magid section, because they had been
fasting and needed something after kiddush before Magid


From: Dachman, Abraham <adachman@...>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 08:04:13 -0500
Subject: Origin and meaning of the kitul on Pesach

The earliest references I could find are the Levush and contemporary
mefroshim on Shuchan Aruch; I find no mention of the kittul in the
Rishonim. Does anyone know of early references to use of the kittul on
Pesach and early documentation of the reason for its use. Later
meforshim and contemporary list several reasons including: analogous to
angels, simcha, temper frivolity with a reminder of death and being like
a khan in codes kosher. I'm particularly interested in the latter
explanation mentioned by our Rav (Chicago, Adas Yeshurun).

Abraham H. Dachman, MD, FACR
Professor of  Radiology, The University of Chicago


From: .cp. <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:34:02 -0700
Subject: Re:  Proposed new US Daylight Savings Time Rules

> These new times look like they will be rather inconvenient for
> Shacharit. The weekday minyanim I usually make it to run from 6:30 or
> 6:45 in the morning until about 7:30. In November, it won't even be time
> to put on our talitot until halfway through minyan.

Hello!? There IS a world outside of New York. You would do what people
everywhere in the far west of a time zone USA do - adjust.  Personally,
if I can not daven with a later minyan I daven with the early minyan and
put on tefillin when the time comes. According to Rav Moshe zl, roghly
20 minutes prior to sunrise which at certain times of the year is after
davening is over. If the time is after Yishtabach I put them on during
Chazoras HaShatz.

From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 02:39:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Proposed new US Daylight Savings Time Rules

This ties in nicely to the topic about the Jews of England... they have
been facing this issue all along.  There are periods there when the sun
rises after 8:00 a.m.

From: Eliyahu Shiffman <sunhouse@...>
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 22:37:17 +0200
Subject: Proposed new US Daylight Savings Time Rules

> So there are a couple questions. What can halachically be done of the US
> Senate passes this bill and it becomes law? Is it necessary to write to
> our Senators to request that they remove this provision from the bill?

There's enough of that in Israel (where I live) -- it would even be more
inappropriate in the US to lobby against the extension of DST because of
the halachic complications it creates.

Presumably, the proposal to extend DST is based on either economic
logic, public safety or both.  It would be unfortunate indeed if
religious Jews were seen to be lobbying against a measure that could
improve the general economy and/or keep everybody's children safer in
order that the times for davening shaharit would not be halachically

Eliyahu Shiffman
Beit Shemesh, Israel 

From: Mordechai <mordechai@...>
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 23:46:38 -0400
Subject: Proposed new US Daylight Savings Time Rules

I like the new hours.  I find the early shkiah to be a bigger problem
for jobs.  The idea that I can stay later on Friday is very important to
my job.

I'm writing my congressman that this is good for the Jews.  I can always
daven closer to work during the mornings.  I can't move closer to work
Erev Shabbos.


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:20:20 +0100
Subject: Quinoa

on 4/5/05 2:19 am, Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...> wrote:
> 3.  Also according to the Chicago Rabbinical Council, a machlokes has
> developed over whether quinoa is kitniyos. For this year, the CRC is
> standing by its policy that quinoa is not kitniyos, but the CRC will
> reevaluate the issue after pesach.

Never having heard of quinoa until the matter was raised on mail-jewish,
I decided to see what it looked like for myself. It was available at our
local health food store both as seeds and flakes. The seeds looked
almost identical to millet seeds which were also available which would
tend to suggest that it should be treated similarly i.e. as
kitniot. Also the pictures of the plant shown to me looked very similar
to certain varieties of millet, which would strengthen this argument.

Martin Stern


From: Miriam Weed <miriam.w@...>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:45:53 +0200
Subject: RE: Reality of the World

Andy Goldfinger wrote:

> Finally, here is a controversial one due to a Roman Catholic theologen
> named DeChardin (I hope I have spelled it correctly).  I like it, but a
> friend of mine takes issue with it from a Hashkafic viewpoint.
> "We are not human beings having spiritual experiences.  We are spirtual
> beings having a human experience."
>My friend feels that this belittles the reality of this world.

I think that this ties in with some of what I wrote in my pre-Pesach
post regarding free will.  For us, experience equals reality for all
practical purposes.  On the other hand, we always keep in the back of
our minds that this is not absolute reality in the truest sense, since
only Hashem is absolutely real.  To the extent that we wish to emphasize
that the truest sense in which we are real is the sense in which we are
most linked to Hashem - the spiritual plane, I think this statement can
help us focus on some important aspects of our being without belittling
the reality of this world.

Just to elaborate a bit on what I've been saying: I think my model of
being unable to prove anything yet being convinced of many things helps
us in our difficult balancing act between being closed minded on the one
extreme and so open minded that we don't really stand for anything on
the other (I call it being so open minded that your brains fall out).
This allows for the co-existence of confidence in my understanding of
the world...of Torah that guides my actions without constant
second-guessing and a baseline humility of "but I may be wrong" that
promotes real tolerance and respect.


From: <StephenColman2@...> (Stephen Colman)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 14:52:20 EDT
Subject: Tefillah b'tzibbur- any physical/medical limitations

In the early years of our marriage, we used to spend Pesach in Antwerp
with my parents-in-law, and I used to daven with my father-inlaw z'l in
the Beis Hamedrash of the Rebbe, Reb Itzikel zt'l. During the last few
months of the Rebbe's life (it must have been the end of the 1970's) he
was very ill, but I clearly remember him davenning as Shliach Tzibbur
for Mussaf on Yom Tov - from his wheelchair. He was very weak, and his
voice could not carry very far, but it was a very special Tefillah and
the packed Beis Hamedrash was silent throughout. One could feel the
kedusha of that Mussaf and virtually see the Tefilla of the Rebbe
ascending on High.The memory is still with me today.


From: Matthew Pearlman <Matthew.Pearlman@...>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 11:51:05 +0100
Subject: Yirmiyahu and Grammar

Given the subject line of this thread, I can't help pointing out that
his name is Yirm'yahu, with a shva under the mem rather than a chirik.
(Thanks to my chevruta Jeremy who pointed this out to me recently!)

Matthew Pearlman


End of Volume 47 Issue 87