Volume 47 Number 88
                    Produced: Thu May 12  5:20:35 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Can you live 7 days w/o Potato Chips
         [Janice Gelb]
Eliyahu haNavi (3)
         [Shimon Lebowitz, <rubin20@...>, Ben Katz]
Eliyahu Seder Night
         [Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer]
Hametz After Pesah (4)
         [Yehonatan & Randy Chipman, David Curwin, Jeffrey Kaufman,
Kinyan and Selling Chametz
         [David Eisen]
Kitniyot  and Eidot
         [Yisrael & Batya Medad]


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:59:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Can you live 7 days w/o Potato Chips

Harold Greenberg <harold.greenberg@...> wrote:
> Apparently not.  just returned from the super (Hebrew for supermarket)
> with six large bags of Elite potato chips manufactured under licence
> from Frito-Lay.  In addition to the kashrut certificate of the Chief
> Rabbinate/Netivot Rabbinate as required by Israeli law, there is a
> BaDaTZ certificate of the Eidah haHaridit Yerushalayim -"chag sameah
> v'kasher - produced especially kasher l'Pesach parveh."

I've gotten used to kosher l'Pesach potato chips over the years. The one
that had my jaw dropping this year was kosher-for-Passover cotton candy!
(Called "candy floss" by the Brits, "fairy floss" by the Aussies.) Every
year, a friend and I have a contest for the least-necessary kosher
l'Pesach food and this was an easy winner this year. Previous winners
have included taco mix, wasabi sauce, boxed matzo brei mix (how hard is
it by hand?), and blueberry pancake mix (Ashkenazim can't have peas
because they might chas v'shalom be mistaken for chometz but we can have
blueberry pancakes...)

-- Janice


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:54:40 +0200
Subject: Re: Eliyahu haNavi

>     It is commonly believed that Eliyahu will or can come Seder night to
> be Mevaser the Geulah (See Hok Yaakov to OH 480).  
> ...
>     However, the Gemara in Eruvin 43b makes it clear that, according to
> the view that there are Techumin above 10, Eliyahu cannot come on Shabbat
> or Yom Tov.  

I have not checked the quoted references, but my memory of the common
beliefs regarding Eliyahu are a bit different.

As I have heard, Eliyahu has two 'aspects'. In one, he is a physical,
living human being. Having never 'died', but rather going directly to
'heaven', he can return in physical form and perform various tasks for
the Jewish people. One of these will be the announcement of the final
redemption. Since he will be in physical form, he will be limited by the
halachot that apply to people.

On other occasions, Eliyahu is a form of angel, a mal'ach.  In this form
he is not limited by any factors of the physical world, neither the
halachic limitations nor time-space limitations.  In this form, Eliyahu
is "melamed zchut" on the Jewish people, he shows their qualities,
particularly those qualities which in his lifetime he doubted.

As a mal'ach, Eliyahu attends every brit, regardless of the distance
between "simultaneous" britot (to the millisecond? micro-? pico-?). A
brit is the start of a new link in Jewish tradition, a new Jewish baby
is entering the Covenant with G-d. So it is with every Seder Pesach.  A
family is passing down Jewish tradition to its children (they are the
stars of the Seder show, right?) and Eliyahu mal'ach habrit comes to
that too, regardless of the physical impossibility of visiting every
Jewish home in the world on one night (even with multiple time zones).

So, on Seder night tchumim are not an obstacle to Eliyahu's visit, any
more than sipping all that wine will get him drunk. :-)

As a funny aside, I once saw an article, apparently by a physicist,
attempting to describe how santa, lehavdil!!, manages to get to all the
'good children' on one night.  I wouldn't be surprised if google could
still find it.


From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 08:52:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Eliyahu haNavi

  Having spent some time examining this issue, I do not believe there is
any legitimate source for this belief, and in fact quite a few that it
is not true.  The RAMA explicitly states that we open the door by
'Shfoch Chamoscha' not to welcome Eliyahou, but to show that it is a
night of watching. The commentators give a number a reason why it is
called Cos shes EEliyahou, never stating that Eliyahou comes. This is
aside from the Gemar mentioned. The source of this belief is a best a I
can ascertain a result of a misprint!!! In the Mahram Chagiz, in one of
his two explanations as to why it is called Cos Shel Eliyahou he writes
" there is no doubt that the blessing of Eliyahou will come ...." . I
see this quoted a lot, often with out the word blessing, reading there
is no doubt Eliyahou will come.

From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:50:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Eliyahu haNavi

         2 comments re Rabbi Dr. Frimer's e-mail:

1.  Eliyahu coming to every brit is a punishment for having denied that
benay yisrael are keeping His covenant.  Interestingly, he seems to have
been "fired" by God right after he makes that comment, with Elisha
replacing him.

2.  I always thought that the Eliyahu cup was just to resolve the issue
of whether there were 4 cups or 5 during the seder (for the possible 5th
lashon of geulah - vehayvayte - whose verse was probably omitted from
the seder because of the trauma of the Roman exile, which took place
shortly before much of the hagada was finalized), so 1 extra cup was
placed aside, not to be drunk, just in case "until Eliyahu comes" to
answer the question, and that led to the notion of Eliyahu coming to
every seder.  (As an aside, the idea of Eliyahu resolving halachic
issues is often thought to be related to the Talmudic term "tayku" at
the end of a sugya without a resolution, but tayku is not an
abbreviation for "tishbi yetaretz kushyot ubaayot" but an Aramaic word
which means "it stands".  [As an aside to an aside, this is similar to
the misconception of "laaz" being an abbreviation for "lashon am zar"
when it really is a Hebrew word meaning strange or foreign {as in "am
loaz" in the hallel}])

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
e-mail: <bkatz@...>


From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer <frimea@...>
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:49:57 +0300
Subject: Eliyahu Seder Night

On May 4th Ira Jacobson wrote:
    "I always thought that the reason we sing Eliyahu Hanavi on Motza'ei
Shabbat is precisely because he could not have come on Shabbat, and now
he can."

    Ira is correct. The reason given by the Magen Avraham at the end of
OH 295 for our singing about Eliyahu HaNavi on motsa"sh (motsaei
Shabbat) is that he can't come on Erev Shabbat and Erev Chag (Eruvin
43b) because it would interfere with the preparations for Shabbat, and
he can't come on Shabbat (and the Pri Megadim, Eshel Avraham to 295,
says that the same is true for Chag) because of the safek that there may
be Techumin above 10 Tefahim (Eruvin 43b). This is what prompted my
question as to why we expect Seder Night that Eliyahu will eventually
come (See Hok Yaakov on OH 480).

    Subsequent research led me to the Turei Even on RH (on be-Nisan
nig'alu...) and the Kreiti u-pleiti at the end of the Beit haSafek
(after YD 110) and to Rav Braun in Shearim Metzuyanim Behalakha on
Eruvin 43b) - who deal with the coming of the Ben David (Mashiach).
Their answer is directly applicable, of course, to the coming of

    Based on Haza"l's interpretation of Yeshayhu's term "be-itah
ahishena", they argue that there are two possible redemptive scenarios:
"Be-Itah" - a redemption toward the end of history, if we are not
particularly worthy.  This is the normative system where the rules of
not coming on Erev Shabbat/Hag or Shabbat/Hag generally apply.  But
there is also "Ahishena" which is a speeded-up redemptive process, if we
are worthy. The latter says the Kreiti is a miraculous process through
G-d's intervention. Under Ahishena, there are no rules and it can happen
any time. It's not something we would/should expect or can count on -
certainly if we are not truly worthy.  But ultimately it is G-d's
decision and it is something we pray should happen - even if we are not
worthy - because of our precarious situation and the pikuach nefesh of
Jews. That's what we mean by " ve-yatzmach purkanei, VI-YEKAREIV
meshichei".  This either means: bring him soon because we really need
him now, or cause us to repent en masse so that the mashiah will come.

    Hence, we open the door for Eliyahu in the prayer that he will come
under the be-ita system, according to the view that there are no Tehumin
above 10, or under the ahishena system, assuming that G-d will decide to
miraculously hasten the process.

Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: <FrimeA@...>


From: Yehonatan & Randy Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 09:46:15 +0200
Subject: Re:  Hametz After Pesah

In MJ v47n83, David Curwin began a question:  

<<Where I work, there is a coin operated dispenser of coated peanuts -
certainly chametz.>>

Let's stop right there.  Peanuts are at woorse kitniyot, not hametz.
Even that's not at all clear:  in Ashkenazic America, it was common
forty or fifty years ago, to use peanut oil, if not peanuts themselves,
during Pesah.  I once heard Rav Soloveitchik defend this custom, saying
that there was a mahloket among the aharonim, a) as to whether the
prohibition of kitniyot applied to oils or other derivatives altogether
(he named a bunch of late 19th century Lithuanian gedoliom;  I remember
the Natziv and R. Yitzhak Elhanan Spector as being meikel, although his
grandfather was mahmir);  and b) whether peanuts are kitniyot.  This
latter kula may be based on a mistake in botany, but in halakhah
decisions of poskim are what count.     

The rule of "hametz she-avar alav et hepesah" only applies to hametz
be'eyn -- that is, actual hametz: not kitniyot, not mixtures containing
hametz, and I think there is also a certain minimum quantity
required. (but I'm not sure on this point)

That leaves the coating of the peanuts.  I have no idea what they're
made of, but it somehow seems doubtful that they're real hametz;  in any
event, you should investigate this point before taking any action --
just reading the ingredients on the package should be enough.

Since many people don't seem to know the definitions:  "real hametz"
means one of the five grains, whole or ground, that has become moistened
with water and actually begun to swell up and expand. Not everything
that is not kosher for Pesah is hametz;  in fact, probably 90% of the
stuff we avoid isn't real hametz.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't be
strict on Pesah itself, because there's a special law that anything
mixed with hametz, even the smallest amount, is forbidden (but not yet
hayyav karet!), and even something cooked in hametz utensils.  But
around the periphery there's tremendous room for leniency. 

In brief, you can relax:  the whole question is a non-starter. 

    Yehonatan Chipman

From: David Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:14:35 +0200
Subject: RE: Hametz After Pesah

While my interest in the question is more academic than practical, the
question still applies here. I mentioned coated peanuts because they are
chametz. Commonly known as kabukim, or "botnim amerikaim", their coating
includes flour and the bracha - according to some - is mezonot:


From: <D26JJ@...> (Jeffrey Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 10:54:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Hametz After Pesah

David Curwin wrote
>Where I work, there is a coin operated dispenser of coated peanuts -
>certainly chametz. 

I was wondering - what are the peanuts coated with and why are they
certainly chometz? Peanuts (at worst) is kitniyos, and if the coating is
sugar or chocolate, it should also not be a problem. It might not have a
Hechsher for Pesach, but that would not make it a problem for after

Jeffrey Kaufman

From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:15:00 +0200
Subject: Re: Hametz After Pesah

If the company has any form of hashgacha, the kashrut authority (be it
rabbanut, badatz or an outside organization) will make them sell their
chametz. and the sell-your-chametz-by-shaliach forms prevalent in this
country generally have a note attached encouraging one to name some
specific places where the chametz is to be found, and then to add
"u'vkol makom acher".  so - if this peanut vending machine owner sold
his chametz "wherever it is", then his fault is only in not preventing
its sale on pessach - both lifnei iver and perhaps g'zeila from the arab
who bought all the chametz - unless he delivers those proceeds to
him... so perhaps the solution is for you to cover said vending machine
with paper and LOTS of tape, and explain to your coworkers why.



From: David Eisen <davide@...>
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 15:04:37 +0200
Subject: RE: Kinyan and Selling Chametz

R. Ari Kahn wrote:

>The issue regarding a kinyan when selling chametz is as follows:
>according to some psokim there is no need for a formal kinyan, it is
>done in person so that the seller will take the sale seriously.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best of my understanding, private
individuals, corporations and other public entities do not perform a
sale per se of their hametz vis a vis their local rabbi (at least in
Israel), rather, the individual designates the rabbi as his or her agent
to sell his or her hametz, who in turn further designates the municipal
rav to serve as his or her agent and so on until ultimately one formal
kinyan is performed by the Chief Rabbi on behalf of all the Jews by
power of attorney. In order to appoint a shaliah (agent), I do not think
that the majority of poskim require a formal kinyan to effect the
creation of the agency. That said, I believe that those poskim mentioned
by R. Kahn who nonetheless require a formal kinyan for the appointment
of a shaliah to sell one's hametz are concerned that this sale may
actually be a "legal fiction" or insincere sale (i.e., ha'arama) and
therefore mandate that this appointment externally exhibit the same
formal, legal requirements that are employed when executing an
arms-length transaction in the ordinary course of business. Is this
indeed that matter at hand?

I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on the matter.
B'virkat HaTorah and Shabbat Shalom,
David Eisen
12 Omer 


From: Yisrael & Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 06:21:30 +0200
Subject: Kitniyot  and Eidot

First of all even from the non-Ashkenaz there's such a variety in what
they eat.

But more important.  Pesach is a time when people are most cautious
about trusting the kashrut of others.  If you want to find a way of
unifying the eidot, it's best to start smaller, with an easier issue.

shvigger to a Tunisian


End of Volume 47 Issue 88