Volume 48 Number 25
                    Produced: Tue May 31  5:08:19 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Buying Non-Jewish-Baked Bread
         [Stephen Phillips]
Chasseneh Check List
         [Susan Shapiro]
Crackers after Pesach
         [Perets Mett]
         [Perets Mett]
The Great Unity is upon us (Formerly: The great divide upon us)
         [Russell Jay Hendel]
         [Jack Gross]
Kashrut - Apocryphal story
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Mistakes in Torah Reading too Insignificant to Correct?
         [Bill Page]
Smoking on Yom tov
         [Perry Zamek]
Supporting shuls
         [Shayna Kravetz]
Tzitzith Questions
         [Larry Israel]
Weaving and Wearing of Tzitzit
         [Jack Gross]


From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:16:56 +0100
Subject: Re: Buying Non-Jewish-Baked Bread

> From: Immanuel Burton <iburton@...>
> The Sephardi Kashrut Authority in the United Kingdom has recently
> approved as kosher a range of bread products produced by Allied
> Bakeries.  For more information see:

> http://www.sephardikashrut.org/products%20approved.htm

> I have the following two questions concerning this recent approval:

> (1) Does the prohibition apply if there are no equivalent products
> available from a Jewish bakery, e.g. crumpets?

The Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah Siman 112 Seif 5 brings an opinion (a
"Yesh Omrim") that if the bread from the non-Jewish bakery is of a
superior quality to that obtainable from Jewish bakeries or is of a type
not available in Jewish bakeries (crumpets & muffins?) then in a place
where the custom is to permit Pas Palter (bread from a non-Jewish
bakery) it is permitted to buy these bread products from the non-Jewish
bakery. As this the first time such bread has become available in the
UK, I don't know if the custom here is to permit Pas Palter (although, I
believe that Jacobs Cream Crackers, which have a London Beis Din
Hechsher, are Pas Palter).

> (2) Does price make any difference?

Our Rav mentioned that the Kaf HaChayim permits Pas Palter where it is
cheaper than the Jewish product. I don't know whether there are
conditions attached to this. For example, I would imagine that a very
poor person who is literally "counting the pennies" might well be able
to rely on this Kaf HaChayim, whereas other who could afford the Jewish
bread might not.

I remember that in North West London when a large Kosher store that
belonged to non-Jews was opened up the local Rabbonim advised
(directed?)  that one should still buy one's food from the Jewish owned
stores, even if they were more expensive.

Stephen Phillips


From: <SShap23859@...> (Susan Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:47:47 EDT
Subject: Chasseneh Check List

I am wondering if anyone knows if there exists, online, a check list for
a frum Jewish Wedding.  Everything from A - Z.

Susan, S. Diego


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:22:32 +0100
Subject: Crackers after Pesach

Eli  Turkel wrote:

> I was completely amazed by this. Anything brought into the shul has the
> severest charedi hasgacha. The store where it would have been bought
> would be owned by religious people from Bnei Brak. What is the problem?

Some people do not wish to eat chomets that has been sold over Pesach
uisng the mechiras chomets procedure. The question of the validity of
such sales has been a topic of discussion in this forum on a previous

I guess that the Rov of the shul, or maybe some of the members, observe
this stringency and for this reason crackers, which undoubtedly have
been manufactured some months previously and sold over Pesach in a
mechiras chomets procedure.

In this connection, I understand that branches of Osem Ltd in Europe are
now part of Nestle Corporation (can someone confirm this?) - in which
case (in the relevant countries) chomets goods baked before Pesach could
genuinely be in non-Jewish ownership over Pesach without resorting to
the mechiras chomets procedure.

Perets Mett


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:46:29 +0100
Subject: "Daddy"

Ben Z. Katz, M.D. wrote:

>          I remember once when we lived in New Haven, my middle
> daughter, who was under 2 at the time, got seperated from me in shul
> and cried out "daddy!".  Our Rabbi, who encouraged small children in
> shul, he should live and be well, without missing a beat, said from
> the pulpit "It's nice to hear a child cry out for his father once in a
> while!" 

The Grodzhisker Rebbe, Rabbi Meylekh Shapiro zy"o, used to invest much
energy into saying the hoshanos on Hoshano Rabbo, which continued for
hours. When his son Klonymus Kalman (later to become the Piaseczner Rov,
and author of Chovas Hatalmidim) was about two years old, he came into
the beis medrash in the middle of the hoshanos looking for this father
and cried out 'Tate!' ('Daddy!').

At which his father , the rebbe, said: "And I too cry out 'Tate!' "

Perets Mett


From: Russell Jay Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 22:46:39 GMT
Subject: RE: The Great Unity is upon us (Formerly: The great divide upon us)

I just wished my brother-in-law a safe trip. He is going to Israel for a
wedding. While in Israel he is doing volunteer work---he donates his
SERVICES (he is a dentist) to children on welfare (mostly charedi)

My brother-in-laws charity is not unique. Last year Baltimore had a
concert to raise money for Meir Panim an organization that provides hot
lunches to students in Israel (without food). We personally heard from
principles of schools where a major problem are students who don't
eat. The concert was performed by 4 cantors who donated their services
free an Israeli conductor and the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra. The 4
cantors spanned all denominations. The event had people from all
denominations--charedi Rabbis, orthodox, conservative and reform
laypeople, etc.

I am a member for life for AMIT which is officially recognized by Israel
and is in charge of the religious network of schools. Over the past few
years the mayor of Sedayroth was so impressed with AMIT accomplishements
(higher passing rates, higher scores on matriculation exams, higher
rates of graudation among high school dropouts) that it asked AMIT to
take over the secular curriculum. Amit had initially refused but this
year it is developing a curriculum call TRADITION which will be used in
the schools.

Several of the synagogues in my area routinely sponsor a) trips to
Israel to the settlements b) encourage essay writing on settlements c)
invite speakers from the settlements and d) have sister communities in

We still do have differences. But, to use colloquial expressions, if the
cup used to be 90% empty and is not 40% empty we should not speak about
the cup being almost empty, we should rather speak about the TREND that
the cup is becoming full.

If you carefully review the 4 examples above you will see that there is
a great deal of unity among the Jewish people. We still have some
(serious) problems. But let us stop talking about the great divide. I
find it insulting--it dwarfs and erases our other accomplishments. AMIT
has a beautiful saying: The children come first. One third of israeli
school children do not have meals, do not have shoes to walk to school
etc. This poverty crosses all denominations (Stop acting like the
CHaredi are the only one!) The point of AMIT is that children are
non-denominational--a child who needs food needs the same type of
nourishment independent of their background.

I dont mind discussing our problems. But let us sit back every now and
then discuss our accomplishements.

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.Rashiyomi.com


From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:11:52 -0400
Subject: Kaddish

> Presumably Jack is referring to what I wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 48 #05
> >> This responsibility only applies to the Aleinu kaddish (for
> >> Ashkenazim) or the one after the mizmor preceding it (for
> >> Sephardim). Where there are no aveilim, for whom extra opportunities
> >> were introduced in the case of multiple aveilim, as he writes, the
> >> shats should not say the others because of tirkha detsibbura.
> I think he has made a fundamental error in his concept of the chiyuv to
> say kaddish. Apart from the one I mentioned, which is part of the seder
> hatephillah, like chatsi kaddish and kaddish shaleim, and therefore an
> obligation on the tsibbur as a whole, there is no obligation whatsoever
> that any other kaddish be said. Their recitation is a personal
> obligation on an aveil so, if none are present, there is no reason to
> say it at all.

Yes, I was.

The issue of 'ribbui kaddishim' to serve the desire of the aveilim is
trivialization, not 'tircha'.  The flip side of the coin (omitting
kaddish when there are no "chiyyuvim" in attendance) also tends to
trivialize it.

The obligation for Kaddish rests with the Tzibbur, not the aveil, if you
grant that the one saying Kaddish does so only as a Shliach Tzibbur.
The "chiyyuv" factor only comes in secondarily: Once there is a
requirement to say Kaddish, it is a factor in deciding who should be
nominated.  Whatever the shul's established practice in regard to where
in the service Kaddish is said, each Kaddsih should be recited whether
or not "chiyyuvim" are present.


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:50:14 +0200
Subject: Kashrut - Apocryphal story

In Ner Yisrael we heard an apocryphal story about a certain great Rosh
Yeshiva who came to the Yeshiva and gave a Shiur. Afterwards, he went
over to the Rosh Yeshiva's house, but as he had a principle of never
eating at anyone else's house, he took out his own food. He just asked
the Rebbitzen if she could let him have a plate and silverware to eat
on. She brought him a paper plate and plastic silverware, and told him:
"If my food isn't kosher enough for you, neither are my dishes."

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Bill Page <Page@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:12:31 -0400
Subject: Mistakes in Torah Reading too Insignificant to Correct?

What sorts of mistakes in leyning should a gabbai let go?  I get the
impression that the practice on this point is not entirely consistent,
and the differences sometimes cause annoyance.

According to R' Doniel Neustadt, http://www.torah.org/info/about.php3,
one shouldn't correct a "minor" mistake, that is, one that doesn't
seriously change the meaning.  He also suggests that if correcting isn't
required, it may be prohibited (except in special cases) because it may
cause embarrassment.

My problem is, someone serving as gabbai may not know, on the fly,
whether the mistake changes the meaning or not.  R' Neustadt does offer
a few handy guidelines:

"Minor mistakes include: Misreading of vowels which does not alter the
basic meaning of the word, e.g., the word 'eis' with a tzeirei under the
aleph instead of segol (es); the word 'kol' with a cholom instead of kal
with a kamatz; the word 'lecha' with a kametz instead of lach with a
sheva(24); the word 'aretz' with a kametz under the aleph instead of
eretz with a segol. There are many more such examples, and they account
for most of the errors that the average ba'al koreh commits."

That's helpful, but what are some of these other minor mistakes? 



From: Perry Zamek <perryza@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:14:56 +0200
Subject: Re: Smoking on Yom tov

Martin Stern wrote:
>Isn't the question people should consider whether smoking is permitted
>at any time since we now have such strong evidence that it is a major
>cause of illness and death.

Of course Martin is right. My discussion of whether smoking is or is not
permitted today on yom tov leaves aside the issue of whether smoking is
permitted at all.

On a somewhat humorous note, I dream of going up to a yeshivah bochur
who is smoking, asking for the pack of cigarettes, and noting, "I don't
think this brand has a hechsher."

Perry Zamek


From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:37:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Supporting shuls

>Carl Singer, in a recent posting, asked for halachik sources backing up
>the requirement for one to support the shul they daven in.
>How about that less than often quoted fifth chelek of the shulchan
>aruch? I can't imagine any valid reason for not supporting an
>institution that you get benefit thereof. Is it not the only menschlech
>way to behave?
>Stuart Pilichowski

The problem with quoting the fifth chelek of the Shulchan Aruch is that
there are so many girsa'ot (variant texts)! <g>

Kol tuv from
Shayna in Toronto


From: Larry Israel <VSLARRY@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 05 13:04:48 +0300
Subject: Tzitzith Questions

I have heard that one should not wear his tzitzith (ritual fringes) on
the outside when in a cemetery, because that could be considered poking
fun at the dead people who could no longer observe this commandment.

I have two questions. What about wearing them outside at night, when the
commandment to wear tzitzith on four-cornered garments is not in effect?
What about doing so in a cemetery for women, who do not have the


From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:56:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Weaving and Wearing of Tzitzit

I wrote that there is an issue whether women may prepare Tzitzis.
Checking again (S.A. O.C. 11 and M.B. ad loc), it is clear that women
may do so.  Same would apply equally to tying them, since both require
'lishmah', although I do not see the issue of women mentioned in that

(A practical explanation: I assume that spinning requires training and
practice that women commonly had and men commonly lacked, so women
typically wound up doing the spinning for Tzitzis -- whereas men could
do the tying themselves once the threads were available.)


End of Volume 48 Issue 25