Volume 48 Number 26
                    Produced: Tue May 31  6:43:16 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bnot Tzlofchad
         [W. Baker]
Broccoli (was anti female bias)
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Chametz after Pesach
Chometz after Pesach
         [Mark Steiner]
Counting to a Minyan
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Kiddish Erev Shavuot (6)
         [<jf@...>, Lipman Phillip Minden, Michael Mirsky, Martin
Stern, Shayna Kravetz, Bill Bernstein]
Kol Nidrei Statement
         [W. Baker]
non-Jewish baked bread
         [Carl Singer]
Supporting Shuls
         [Ira L. Jacobson]


From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:32:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Bnot Tzlofchad

> From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...>
> After Dov Teichman wrote:
>>> The feminist movement, in most of its forms, strives for complete
>>> equality between the sexes. To transfer those feelings of sexism and
>>> patriarchy to Judaism, is to have the gall to say that our greatest
>>> leaders and poskim had an anti-female bias. The undercurrent is that
>>> Judaism as has been practiced for thousands of years is flawed. That
>>> is absurd to say, and I think at the least, borders on heresy.
> David and Toby Curwin <tobyndave@...> replied:
>> The Sifrei in Parshat Pinchas, attributes to Bnot Tzlofchad: "Human
>> favor is not like divine favor. Humans favor males over females, but God
>> favors all...".  And of course, in the end, God said that Bnot Tzlofchad
>> spoke correctly.
> Note all the things that Moshe doesn't do in response to the daughters'
> question: he doesn't say there's no precedent, he doesn't question their
> motivations, he doesn't say that change is impossible, he doesn't say
> that there is already a complete scheme for inheritance in place, so why
> should they want anything beyond what is already the halachah.

After snipping much of Shayna's beautiful post, I add my comment.  It has 
always seemd to me that one of the lessons of this episode is to teach us 
that new things can arise that require new rulings and thinking.  Many 
say, well, Moshe could turn to Hashem for an answer, but we can't so no 
change or adaption.  What we see is that Moshe took the issue seriously, 
and did sometning about it.  To dismiss without making the 
effort is not Moshe's way, and apparently, from the answer and the later 
refining of the issue whan others bring questions, is not Hashem's way 

Wendy Baker


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:19:02 EDT
Subject: Broccoli (was anti female bias)

My understanding is the chumrah on broccoli and asparagus is not that
Halacha changed, nor does it illustrate a precipitous march to the right
as much as DDT has become illegal, making the bug infestation nearly, if
not completely impossible to eliminate in those types of vegetables.

So no, our parents were eating clean vegetables, not assur bugs.

Chaim Shapiro


From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:47:08 +0200
Subject: Re: Chametz after Pesach

  Eli Turkel wrote in 48/22, after quoting tzvi stein's response to him:
> > Very likely, even the stores themselves would not have crackers. 
> > The reason is that some people are strict to not eat even chometz
> > that was sold to a gentile over Pesach.  The only chometz they eat
> > is that which was made after Pesach, from flour that was milled
> > after Pesach. They do not want to rely on "mechiras chometz", even
> > that which was done by someone else (i.e. a store, factory, or
> > warehouse).
>   Chametz after Pesach is only prohibited because of a "kenas".     
>  There is no problem of actual chametz after Pesach. Hence, as     
>  long as the store or factory sold it in a valid way according to most 
>   poskim it makes no sense for there to be a "kenas"

that's fine for the books. but practically speaking you won't find these
places using crackers etc. unless they are made from flour ground after
pessach (and generally have a label to this effect pasted on when they
are for sale soon after pessach). that's what tzvi means.



From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:55:11 +0300
Subject: RE: Chometz after Pesach

The issue with chometz after Pessach has to do with the growth of the
so-called "Lithuanian" or "Yeshivish" element of Judaism.  The Vilner
Gaon held that the sale of chometz is an invalid subterfuge and that the
sale should not be relied upon.  Angel and other Jerusalem bakeries made
it possible in the past to avoid any use of the sale by baking "shmurah
bread" after Pesach, i.e. bread baked with shmurah flour (flour reserved
for shmurah matzah).  This year, however, the Eda Charedis prevented
this from happening.  Believe it or not, I saw a placard in Jerusalem
warning the Eda Charedis that their hechsher will be put in cherem if
they don't allow the "yeshivaleit" to behave according to the Gra
(Vilner Gaon).

Mark Steiner


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:23:19 EDT
Subject: Counting to a Minyan

      Both of us were wearing crocheted kippot.  It was Mincha time and
      we went to the Meah Shearim shteiblich were thay have numerous
      prayer rooms and where the prayer starts as soon as there is a
      minyan. There was a handful of local residents when we walked in,
      took siddurim and sat down to wait for a minyan. Within minutes we
      were ten in total and yet the service did not start. It was only
      about 5 minutes later when two more locals joined us did they
      "klop" and say "Ashrei.....".

      Nothing was said to us outright but we did have the feeling that
      we were somehow not being counted there.

While I won't deny your explanation as a possibility, is it possible
that the two that entered were regulars or Chiyuvim for whom the Minyan
waited on daily basis:?

Chaim Shapiro


From: <jf@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:44:01 +0200
Subject: Re: Kiddish Erev Shavuot

Unfortunately, Ed, I do believe that you must wait until nightfall (app.
time when Shabbos ends) for you to daven and say Kiddush since you must
wait for 49 FULL days before you can start davening and accepting Yom

From: Lipman Phillip Minden <phminden@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:54:01 +0200
Subject: Kiddish Erev Shavuot

Ed Norin asked:

> Under halacha, what is the earliest time we can make kiddish on Sunday  
> night, Erev Shavuot?

To wait until nacht is a rather recent chumre originally by R' Yankev
Polak (of pilpul fame), accepted mainly by kabbalists. Actually, even
that you should wait with Maarev until Plag minche is not universal;
e. g.  several manuscripts of the Sefer Mahri"l report that
Minche/Maarev was said a 60-min hour after chatzes [midday].

So, say, for Pompton Plains, that makes about 2:30 p.m., or 6:55 p.m. if
you insist on Plag minche. Depending on the method you have for
calculating nacht, you might well approach 11:30, but you asked about
haloche, not minhogim or chumres.

Don't let your cheesecake get stale,

Lipman Phillip Minden

From: Michael Mirsky <mirskym@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:34:00 -0400
Subject: Kiddish Erev Shavuot

Unlike a normal Erev Shabbat where it is possible to bring in Shabbat
early (after plag hamincha), it is not possible to do this for Shavuot.

The reason is that the Torah commanded us to count "seven complete
weeks" with regard to counting the Omer.  Since the count ends that
evening, we must wait until nightfall. That would be the same time as
you would be able to make Havdala had it been a Shabbat.

If you go to shul, Maariv will be delayed until that time (so you can
say the holiday amidah at the right time).

There are several minhagim on what this time is, but one well-accepted
minhag would be 45 minutes after sunset.  In Teaneck, NJ (assuming
you're not far from there), the time this year would be 9:13 p.m. EDT.

Michael Mirsky

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:24:53 +0100
Subject: Re: Kiddish Erev Shavuot

The Yoseph Omets, dayan in Frankfort about 400 years ago writes
(paragraph 850) that one should not wait until night to make kiddush on
Shavuot and suggesting that this is a lack in 'temimot' is a
misunderstanding. In fact he implies one should daven ma'ariv at the
time Yom Tov commences and then make kiddush on returning home, long
before night, and not follow 'the new custom coming from Poland' of

Martin Stern

From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:32:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Kiddish Erev Shavuot

Because of the reference to 'sheva shavu'ot t'mimot' (seven complete or
perfect weeks) in the description of the mitzvah of sefirat ha-omer, it
is not possible to bring in Shavu'ot early, as I understand it.  Making
an early kiddush would curtail the last day and thus fail to complete
the omer.

Kol tuv from
Shayna in Toronto

From: Bill Bernstein <billbernstein@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:23:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Kiddish Erev Shavuot

Regarding this, the halakha brought by the Taz is that one must wait
until tzeis hakochavim (when the stars come out) to make kiddush.  I
think the Magen Avrohom brings the same ruling for maariv that night.
This law is not found in the gemoro or the rishonim.  The Melamed L"hoil
was asked this question where there were small children.  In some places
in Germany waiting until tzeis at this time of year could mean as late
as 11:00 pm.  He clearly decided that in that case one could make
kiddush earlier but it was preferable to wait until shkia (sunset).  I
have heard that Rav Ovadya Yosef gives a similar ruling.

Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN


From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:45:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Kol Nidrei Statement

> I would tend to understand the statement at Kol Nidrei time as more of a
> support for Ira's position than Yeshaya's position. If R' Meir of
> Rothenberg felt it necessary to add this statement to the beginning of
> the Kol Nidrei prayers, I would understand that in general, this which
> is being permitted now, is otherwise forbidden. This would appear to be
> a much more stringent opinion than what has been presented by a number
> of posters here during this discussion. The issue we have been dealing
> with is whether they count for a minyan. R' Meir's opinion, it would
> appear, is that even if you have a minyan without them, you still cannot
> daven if they are part of the congregation. It would be of interest to
> understand if that is really the implication of the introductory passage
> to Kol Nidre, and whether there is such an opinion in Halacha. If not,
> what does that passage really mean.
> However, I do not think that one can make any arguement from that
> passage to support Yeshaya's position.
> Avi Feldblum

It has always seemed to me that the comment about having permission to pray 
with sinners at Kol Nidre was the permission  for all of us to be able to 
pray with each other.  After all, who, at Kol Nidre, is not a sinner?  If 
not a sinner, why spend the day in fasting and prayer.  You could say, 
well, there are sinners and then there are sinners, but that seems to be 
picking the nit.

Wendy Baker


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:11:10 -0400
Subject: re: non-Jewish baked bread

I don't know if this practice is common in the UK -- but in the USA some
non-Jewish producers have the oven turned on by a Jew so it's considered
Pas Yisroel (by those who so hold.)

Carl Singer


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:56:33 +0300
Subject: Re: Supporting Shuls

      . . . asked for halachik sources backing up the requirement for
      one to support the shul they daven in.

      How about that less than often quoted fifth chelek of the shulchan
      aruch? I can't imagine any valid reason for not supporting an
      institution that you get benefit thereof. Is it not the only
      menschlech way to behave?

I would point out that in my city, many people's choice of were to daven
weekday mornings is based on proximity of the shul to their homes
combined with convenience of the time schedule.  So that what happens is
often the majority of the daveners are not members of the shul in which
they happen to be davening.

And more pointedly, some shuls might not get a minyan if they depended
only on their members.  And some people davening there pick that
particular shul precisely to try to ensure that there will be a minyan

The latter's argument could very well be that THEY are doing a service
to the shul and therefore reduce their obligation to help support it
financially.  On the other hand, to modify the cash flow, one could
posit a situation where one's payments to each shul he attends would be
based on the number of hours he actually spends there.  In such a case,
on the average, each person would pay out the same sum as at present,
and each shul would receive the same sum as at present, only the routing
of the monies would be different.

IRA L. JACOBSON         


End of Volume 48 Issue 26