Volume 48 Number 27
                    Produced: Wed Jun  1  5:13:12 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Artscroll Error
         [Harry Zelcer]
Bloodshed, Courts, and  Minyan
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Buying Non-Jewish-Baked Bread
         [Judith Weil]
Heinz Vegetarian Baked Beans
         [Mike Gerver]
Kaddish between Mincha and Maariv
         [Harry Zelcer]
Kitka and "Kol kevuda"
         [Rahel Jaskow]
Kol Kvuda Bas Melech Penimah
         [Rhonda Stein]
non-Frum, Minyan and Kol Nidrei
         [Michael Kahn]
Qualifications for Ba'al Tefilah
         [Martin Stern]
Women's Issues
         [Leona Kroll]
Yom Tov Prayer Clarification
         [Mark Steiner]


From: Harry Zelcer <reliablehealth@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:00:53 -0400
Subject: RE: Artscroll Error

It seems a week does not go by without someone commenting on errors made
by ArtScroll. What are we so obsessed over ArtScroll's errorss?

[Basically two related reasons. Artscroll is rather quickly becoming the
most used siddur in shuls around the world. So errors there are of
greater significance than in other less used siddurim. The specific of
the recent discussions was that someone on the list challanged the
statement that there were errors in the Artscroll siddur, just as there
are in almost all printed editions of the siddur. Mod]


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:52:22 +0300
Subject: Re: Bloodshed, Courts, and  Minyan

c.halevi <c.halevi@...>  stated the following on Fri, 27 May 2005
09:50:39 -0500:

      Ira L. Jacobson wrote >>If we were of greater stature than the
      Mishna Berura, which forbids such a thing, then perhaps we

      I think it's the opposite, that the question really falls upon the
      Mishna Berura. After all, as I wrote earlier, it was Rabbi Meir of
      Rothenberg who prefixed Kol Nidre with the declaration that it was
      permissible to daven with sinners. He didn't qualify it by adding,
      "And oh, BTW, you can daven with sinners but you can't count them
      for a minyan."

(Note that after I wrote this I noticed that Avi had in part stolen my
thunder.  Nevertheless, I wish to include my remarks because of the
different nuances.)

There are two issues here with which I'd like to take issue.

First, the declaration before Kol Nidrei emphasizes that this was **one
time** when we are permitted to pray with "sinners," as opposed to doing
so every day.  And of course the "sinners" there refer to those
conversos who made believe on the outside that they had discarded their

But furthermore, our question was not about whether mehalleli Shabbat
befarhesia are permitted to pray with us, but rather whether they were
to be counted as one of the ten required for communal prayer.  So that
one need not contradict any of Mr. Halevi's facts to determine that they
do not address the question.

      Don't like Rabbi Meir of Rothenberg's decree? Remember, he based
      it on the **G'mara** that says "A public fast where Jewish sinners
      don't participate is not a fast."

Note that it does not state that a public fast in which the minyan is
not made up of nine observant Jews and one non-observant Jew is not a
fast.  Had R' Meir of Rothenberg said that, then one could indeed have
pitted him against the Mishna Berura.  Fortunately, there is no such

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: Judith Weil <weildj@...>
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:33:14 +0300
Subject: Re: Buying Non-Jewish-Baked Bread

> The Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah Siman 112 Seif 5 brings an opinion (a
> "Yesh Omrim") that if the bread from the non-Jewish bakery is of a
> superior quality to that obtainable from Jewish bakeries or is of a type
> not available in Jewish bakeries (crumpets & muffins?) then in a place
> where the custom is to permit Pas Palter (bread from a non-Jewish
> bakery) it is permitted to buy these bread products from the non-Jewish
> bakery. As this the first time such bread has become available in the
> UK, I don't know if the custom here is to permit Pas Palter (although, I
> believe that Jacobs Cream Crackers, which have a London Beis Din
> Hechsher, are Pas Palter).

I remember that when I lived in London families who were careful not to
take pas akum, or what you call pas palter, nevertheless took Ryvita, a
rye crispbread, because there was no equivalent baked by Jews.

This would mean that it is not correct to say this is "the first time
such bread has become available in the UK".

I haven't lived in London for a long time, and I don't know what the
situation is today.



From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:55:34 EDT
Subject: Heinz Vegetarian Baked Beans

Wendy Baker writes, in v48n23

      The OU hechsher on Heinz Vegetarian Beans is very old. I
      personally know it was there 41 years ago

I believe I heard somewhere that it was the very first product to
receive an OU hechsher.

      My record, for a graduate student's end of year party was 11 cans
      of beans and who remembers how many franks.

When I was a single grad student, living on a grad student's income
around 32 years ago, my roommate Bob Roth and I often had Heinz baked
beans for dinner, with cut up franks mixed in. In those days, Bob didn't
like vegetables, and baked beans and catsup were the closest things to a
vegetable that he would eat. (Only a few years later he was eating a
healthy diet with lots of vegetables.)

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Harry Zelcer <reliablehealth@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:13:06 -0400
Subject: RE: Kaddish between Mincha and Maariv

>In Cleveland, some 35+ years ago, Rabbi Hildesheimer, ztl, a "yeckkie"
>would honor us with a 10 or 15 minute shiur between Mincha / Ma'ariv so
>that, among other things, kaddish might be recited.

Although I do not know anything about R. Hildsheimer from Cleveland, I
would guess that the 10 - 15 minutes of learning that he instituted was
to allow people who otherwise do not learn, to fulfill the obligation,
"to learn Torah during both day and night." This was a common practice
in Europe before the war.

Heshey Zelcer


From: Rahel Jaskow <rjaskow@...>
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:17:50 +0300
Subject: Kitka and "Kol kevuda"

If it helps anyone, the word "kitka" means "bouquet" in Bulgarian.

As regards the verse in Psalm 45, "Kol kevuda bat melekh penima," there
is a case for "kevuda" meaning "luggage" or "dowry." Please refer to the
recent JPS translation (I'd cite it here but I don't have it where I am
right now).

Rahel Jaskow


From: Rhonda Stein <rhondastein@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:21:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Kol Kvuda Bas Melech Penimah

Leah S. Gordon wrote: 
> Would someone who has access to good sources, kindly confirm or prove
> otherwise my suspicion that this particular
> translation/interpretation/emphasis was begun during the
> late-industrial-revolution period, i.e. a time when it was considered
> socially ideal in the broader middle-class society for women to be
> home and presiding over a "holy sphere of influence" at the hearth?

Metzudah translation: All honor awaits the princess within the palace,
greater than golden settings is her rainment. Per Rashi - The Jewish
woman is like a princess who conducts herself with modesty and dignity
shunning ostentation, is the true symbol of nobility and glory.)

Rashi says in Gittin 12a that this refers to a woman who is tznua. The
case discussed is a woman who fled to a city of refuge due to
involuntary manslaughter, and the Gemorah states that her husband must
support her; he can't expect her to go out into a strange city looking
for work, as this is not the way of women who are modest, referring to
the verse in Tehillim.  (Please note that he did not say she shouldn't
work outside the home, just that she shouldn't be out looking for work
in a strange city.)  There may, however, be a presumption that in her
own city she is able to work from her own home since whatever her skill
or craft, people know her and she can have work brought to her.


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:46:44 -0500
Subject: Re: non-Frum, Minyan and Kol Nidrei

I have not read all the posts regarding non frum people in a minyan but
the declaration made before Kol Nidray does not prove that non frum
people can be counted toward a minyan. It can be argued that there is an
inyan, based on the gemara in Taanis, to have "avaryanim" in adition to
ones minyan.  Practically speaking, I once made a minyan in Elmira, NY
when visiting my grandparents there, alayhem hashalom, and I got a psak
that I could count non frum people toward my minyan. it was an inspiring
experience. But I asked a shaylah. I don't pasken for myself and neither
should others.


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:21 +0100
Subject: Re: Qualifications for Ba'al Tefilah

on 31/5/05 9:56 am, I. Balbin <isaac@...> wrote:

> Let's not go about casting aspersions on people who might have an
> approach to the Davening that is a "tad modern" for some, and "Rock
> Star-like" for others. If the person is otherwise a Yirei Shomayim, I
> don't give a tinker's cuss if he Davens in a rock-like bombastic style
> or if he Davens in a long cold mournful style. You daven where you
> feel comfortable.

Isaac is 100% correct provided that "the person is otherwise a Yirei
Shomayim" and I would add understands what he is saying, something
unfortunately not always the case. Perhaps the only caveat I would add
is where a visitor, unfamiliar with the congregation, uses a style
completely at variance with the local norm since this might disturb
their kavannah.

Martin Stern


From: Leona Kroll <leona_kroll@...>
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 02:08:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Women's Issues

Rashi, who I believe we can all agree predated modern industrial society
and was not writing with ulterior motives (and that's without mentioning
his extraordinary daughters and the incredible chinuch he gave them),
states that when the melachim asked Avraham about Sara's whereabouts, it
was to point out her praise, that she was in the tent. However, it
should also be noted that this is speaking of an occasion when the only
guests were men, and it does not mean that she was always in her tent,
secluded away and never seeing the sunlight. She was also known to have
publicized H's name among the women, and it seems more likely that she
did this by going out to speak to them than by asking Avrahom to go and
invite women to stop by her tent for a chat.

As far as shul attendence, the Beis HaMikdash was built with a women's
section. Moreover, many of the techinas- prayers written especially for
women- were written to be said in shul. One famous set of techinas was
composed by the daughter of a leading rav who was disturbed by the
whispering in the women's section, and by her own (she felt)
over-attention to how she and others dressed to come to shul (sound
familiar?).  She composed some really heartfelt prayers to help herself
and other women experience going to shul the way it was meant to be- as
a time to pray and connect to H'

There are certain occasions- specific readings and other times- when-
according to the oldest sources- it is important, some say obligatory,
for a woman to go to shul.

Cheers to Leah for her take on the pasuk- in seminary I heard more than
one rav explin it the same way. Only after moving to Israel did I hear
people (mostly American baal teshuvahs) interpret it as an order that
women should remain home as much as possible.  Having said all of that,
I once heard Rabbi Yossi Paltiel, in Brooklyn, state that there is no
clearer evidence of goyish influence on the frum community than the way
that some frum men look at women and at the role of women within
Judaism- and that is coming from the grandson of some VERY Orthodox
Eastern European men and women. I think its also worth noting that the
children of these very tough, very spritual shul-going women were among
the very very few who managed to raise totally Orthodox families in NYC
in the 1920's, and to support them without ever once breaking Shabbos. A
rare accomplishment even among Orthodox immigrants in those days.


From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:36:24 +0300
Subject: RE: Yom Tov Prayer Clarification

I have been asked to clarify my posting on the Yom Tov prayer, and am
happy to do so:

All present Ashkenaz and so-called "nusach sfard" siddurim are in
"error" (by which I mean they deviate from ancient and authoritative
sources) by inserting the gratuitious words "elokenu velokey avotenu
retzeh vimnuhatenu" in the Yom Tov prayers (including of course Rosh
Hashanah etc.--actually I have not investigated Rosh Hodesh and perhaps
will do so.  Shabbat of course is mentioned in a number of other places
in the prayer including the finale (mekadesh hashabat veyisrael etc.)
but the addition "elokenu..retzeh vimnuhatenu" is gratuitious.

Artscroll is less in error than Birnbaum because Birnbaum has the
gratuitious "elokenu velokey avotenu" all week, not only on shabbat.

By the way, I came upon a siddur with Ladino instructions for the use of
Ladino speaking communities a couple of hundred years ago, and the same
conclusion holds--there is no need to add elokenu...retzeh... On shabbat
that falls on Yom Tov.

Mark Steiner


End of Volume 48 Issue 27