Volume 48 Number 85
                    Produced: Wed Jul  6  5:36:43 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Amen to non-live voices
         [Ari Trachtenberg]
Answering from the hallway
         [Martin Stern]
Debbie Rennert  A'H
         [Chaim Shapiro]
early Maariv
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Kedusha - Emphasis
         [Martin Stern]
Kiddush Levanah - Women
         [Aliza Berger]
Mixed Standing
         [Martin Dauber]
Private Yiddish lesson class on the Upper West Side this summer
         [Freda B Birnbaum]
Valid marriage -- needing a get
         [Carl A. Singer]
         [Carl A. Singer]


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:38:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Amen to non-live voices 

> <ISSARM@...> (I M Fuchs) writes
> But I think that live -- albeit reproduced voices -- are different from
> recorded ones.  The former (at least according to some authorities) is,
> as Ms. Gelb writes, a direct result of the speaker's voice, which itself
> is actually sound waves generated by his speech.
> Recorded voice -- which I believe was the issue at hand -- is not the
> same.  The human generator is not here.  The "generator" in the video,
> tape, MP3, etc., is purely mechanical, magnetic, electric, etc.  This
> would likely result in a different p'sak.  The sources as quoted by Ms.
> Gelb would not seem to apply in the cases in question.

I don't think that the difference between "direct" and "reproduced"
voices is well-defined.  Consider a person talking on the phone with a
delay of several seconds; this could be considered "direct" voice.
However, if I extend the delay to several days (e.g. as is done with a
tape) somehow this is not "direct", even though the person's speech
directly affects what is recorded and, thereafter, what is played back.
It becomes a very difficult challenge to determine the correct delay to
qualify as "direct voice".

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:22:56 +0100
Subject: Re: Answering from the hallway

on 5/7/05 11:25 am, <ISSARM@...> (I M Fuchs) wrote:
> I would have to check out, but I think that in an established shul,
> one may be able to include those, say in the ezras noshim, to "make
> the minyan".  In a makeshift/temporary shul, all 10 men must be in the
> same room.  (In just such a situation, a simple archway may be
> considered a separate room.)  This problem arises often, and deserves
> a proper and thorough look in to the sources.  I have not done so
> recently and am quoting from memory -- this cannot be relied on for
> p'sak.

I can't remember the exact source at present but I recall that one can
count for a minyan people in different rooms provided they can see each
other; perhaps another contributor can provide it. This applies as much
to shuls as ad hoc minyanim. Therefore a tsurat hapetach (archway)
should certainly not present a problem, nor even a real doorway provided
the door is open. As regards the ezrat nashim, it might depend on the
nature of the mechitsah.

Martin Stern


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:06:47 EDT
Subject: Debbie Rennert  A'H

Debbie Rennert, wife of one of the Wisconsin Institute for Torah Study
in Milwaukee's Rebbeim, tragically passed away in a car accident outside
of Chicago on Friday Morning, 24th of Sivan.  B'H local police were able
to put out the car fire and pull 7 children aged 3 months to 17 years
from the van which was filled with smoke.

A fund has been set up to help the husband and ten yisomim, which
include a three month old, a 2.5 year old and several of marriageable

Any tax deductible donations to help the family can be sent to

The Keren Devorah Fund
3288 N Lake Drive
Milwaukee, WI 53211

Updated information is available at the WITS website www.witsyeshiva.com
Any questions can be emailed to me.
Baruch Dayan Hemes

Chaim Shapiro


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:15:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: early Maariv

>From: <chips@...>
>> Note that there are those who say that even davening alone is not good
>> enough if there is no minyon in the community that accepts Shabbos at
>> the later time.
>Who gives a psak contrary to that?

IIRC, Rav Moshe's p'sak on early summer davening seems to say that a
person can accept shabbos later as long as the minyon is only davening
early for convenience.  As an example, if the community minyon is early
in the summer in order to allow the children to eat.  OTOH, if the
community accepts Shabbos early all year round, as in Yerushalayim, then
that is the local minhage and must be accepted by everyone.

This is from memory.  I used to look it up every summer, but have not
done so for a while.  I do not have Igros Moshe her to double check my

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<Sabba.Hillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:08:43 +0100
Subject: Re: Kedusha - Emphasis

on 5/7/05 11:02 am, Mark Symons <msymons@...> wrote:
> There is an aspect of the format of Tefilla that occurs in most, if not
> all, Ashkenaz minyanim that I have davened in, that bothers me. It is
> that the sentences in Kedusha starting Kadosh, Baruch, Yimloch which are
> actually the main part of the Kedusha, are rapidly glossed over and
> gotten out of the way, whereas the sentences/paragraphs starting
> Nekadesh, Az Bekol etc., which seemm to me to be just the introductions
> to the main sentences, are concentrated on, eg saying slower, with
> melody. This is both by the Kahal and the Chazan. It seems to me to be a
> complete reversal of what should be the case.

I could not agree more with Mark. Perhaps the origin of this 'custom'
lies in the fact that these introductions are meant to be said by the
chazan, who embellished them with elaborate tunes, whereas the main
parts were meant to be said by the tsibbur who did not, the chazan
merely saying them along with it. This has always been the custom of the
"real" Ashkenazim as Mike Gerver calls us (Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz
vol. 1). Over the years, the tsibbur began to sing the introductions as
well, a phenomenon also to be noted in the piyutim whose meaning is
often thereby completely distorted, giving rise to the present
deplorable situation. Unfortunately, most Jews, even those having
considerable Talmudic erudition, do not really understand the tephillot,
let alone the piyutim, in great depth so it would be an up-hill struggle
to correct this.

> In my experience, the only exception to this is in the formal
> synagogues where there is a choir, and the choir then does justice to
> the climax phrases.

Unfortunately, the choir often 'takes over' from the congregation who
then lapse into a passive state, more like an audience than

Martin Stern


From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:20:08 +0200
Subject: Kiddush Levanah - Women

My mother reports that at Camp Moshava, Rolling Prairie, Indiana, which
she attended between 1949 and 1954, the girls said kiddush levanah.

Aliza Berger-Cooper, PhD
English Editing: www.editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: www.statistics-help.com


From: Martin Dauber <mhdauber@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:51:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Mixed Standing

 Stuart Pilichowski wote "Just curious: what were the logistics of this
"mixed" crowd for kiddush levana? Men and women standing together side
by side outside under the stars or seperate and off to the side..."

The question of Mechitza comes into play.  These days more and more
situations where in the old days (from the 1980's and before) men and
women were together and now, many insist on mechitzot.

It has always been my understanding that gender segregation and
mechitztot are two separate issues.  Mechitzah is a halacha of the Beit
Kinesest, and segregation is a ubiquitously (sic) appplicable
rule/practice/concern/??? ?

moshe tzvi dauber, md...


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:07:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Private Yiddish lesson class on the Upper West Side this summer

Posting for a friend....
[Note: While I generally do not post commercial notices on mail-jewish,
this seemed enough in the general spirit, especially given our recent
discussions on Yiddish on the list, so I've approved it and am sending
it along, in both English and Yiddish version. Mod.]

>From: Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky <yiddish@...>

Since the JCC of Manhattan is not offering any Yiddish summer courses, I
have two students who completed the Yiddish for Beginner class and would
now like to do private tutoring.  We thought we might open this private
class to other students who may like to study Yiddish this summer in an
intensive way.  Since these are excellent students, with some passive
knowledge, my hope is to have them join my wonderful, lively Advanced
Yiddish class at the JCC of Manhattan in September.  These students are
now at about Lessons 5-6 in Weinreich's College Yiddish and we hope to
do at least 6 more lessons this summer.  We will meet on the Upper West
Side for 2-hour classes, on Thursdays or Fridays, mid-day or in the

If you would like to join us or know anyone who may be interested,
please contact me as soon as possible at <yiddish@...>  We would
like to start the class this week.


Azoy vi der JCC of Manhattan bot nit on keyn yidish klasn dem zumer, hob
ikh tsvey students vos hobn farendikt mayn Yidish far Onheyber kurs un
viln zikh itst lernen privat.  Mir viln onbotn andere students vos viln
zikh lernen yidish af an intensivn oyfn dem zumer di gelegnhayt zikh tsu
bateylikn in dem privatn klas.  Azoy vi di zaynen oysgetseykhnte
studentn mit a pasiver kentenish, hof ikh az zey veln zikh kenen
araynpasn in mayn vunderlekhn, lebedikn Avantsirt Yidish klas bay dem
JCC of Manhattan dem september.  Di studentn haltn itst bay lektsyes 5-6
in Vaynraykh's College Yiddish tekstbikhl. Undzer tsil iz tsu dekn
khotsh nokh 6 lektsyes in bukh dem zumer.  Mir veln zikh trefn af der
Upper West Side in tsvey-shoike klasn donershtik oder fraytik, in mitn
tog oder nokh mitog.

Oyb ir vilt oder oyb ir kent andere vos viln zikh bateylikn in dem
privatn klas, shtelt zikh in farbindung mit mir azoy gikh vi meglakh,
<yiddish@...>  Mir viln onheybn dem klas di vokh.

Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky


From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 06:48:58 -0400
Subject: Valid marriage -- needing a get

> It shouldn't matter if he's religious if he wants to be a Jew and obey
> Jewish national laws.  That's a way that one can show that he takes
> being a Jew** seriously, that he submits to Jewish national laws.  There
> are lots of Jews who take seriously their membership in the Jewish
> nation, even if they aren't observant of the religion, and even if they
> don't believe in God.  In fact, I think a case could be made for a third
> category of Jewish law, those between man and G-d, between man and man,
> and between the nation of Israel and its citizens (that is, all Jews).

This speaks as if there is a single, monolithic national enterprise
called "Jewish" with a single set of laws. And that wanting to be a Jew
means abiding by this single set of laws.  There are, no doubt, many who
consider themselves Jewish (and "good Jews") who hold by other standards
regarding Jewish laws - mostly ben Adam l'Makom - whether it comes to
kashruth, Shabbos observance, etc.

Would that it were so simple.  What if the Rabbi consulted doesn't deem
that a get is needed nowadays or that the "bet din" (in this case the
3-person tribunal needed in the case of a get) may include women or Jews
who are not Shomre mitzvah, what if the formula used on the document
varies from the exact formula?

It's a morass.

I'm want to give an individual specific advice, but if one were to
convince another party to obtain a get, it would be necessary to have
pre-arranged the venue and the person this person should contact in
order to facilitate the matter.  I.e. I have pre-arranged with Rabbi
Plony, please contact him (he is waiting for your call.)

Carl Singer


From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:17:58 -0400
Subject: Volunteering

> So if you are a professional who has been writing for the weekly local
> paper and getting $50 for your work, and suddenly you aren't given
> assignments because people are working for free--well, I consider it a
> different kettle of fish.

What if you form a charity which drives people to doctors appointments
(for free, of course.) -- I'm using this example because driving a
vehicle is, unlike writing well, pretty much a generic skill.

So your charity now drives people who otherwise would have used a taxi
or car service (or public transportation.) -- you are taking parnuseh
(income) away from others who provide this service for a fee.

Is there a conflict? 

Furthermore, to make things more interesting -- those who do this
service for a fee need special licensing, inspections, certification,
insurance, etc.  -- as a volunteer you do not have (need?) the same.

Finally, you could have accomplished the same end result by forming a
charity (g'mach?) that provides funds for those who need to take the taxi
/ car service.

Carl Singer


End of Volume 48 Issue 85