Volume 48 Number 86
                    Produced: Wed Jul  6  6:55:39 EDT 2005

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Amen to non-live voices
         [Carl A. Singer]
Early Kiddush on Shemini Atzeret
         [Jonathan Sperling]
Early Shemini Aseret (2)
         [Martin Stern, Jack Gross]
Kaddish at a minyan you're not davening with
         [Martin Stern]
Kiddush Levana on Yom-Tov and Shabbos
Mechitza at Funeral Parlour and Placement of Cohanim
         [Martin Stern]
Secular Translation of the Torah
Treatment of a worker -- was second job / volunteering
         [Carl A. Singer]
Yitgadal-yitgadell -- HITPAEL means INTERACTIVE
         [Russell Jay Hendel]


From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:32:56 -0400
Subject: Amen to non-live voices

> I don't think that the difference between "direct" and "reproduced"
> voices is well-defined.  Consider a person talking on the phone with a
> delay of several seconds; this could be considered "direct" voice.
> However, if I extend the delay to several days (e.g. as is done with a
> tape) somehow this is not "direct", even though the person's speech
> directly affects what is recorded and, thereafter, what is played back.
> It becomes a very difficult challenge to determine the correct delay to
>qualify as "direct voice".

I believe the issue isn't so much time delay as it is proximate cause of
the sound.  Is it someone speaking -- hence the words you are hearing
(whether live, amplified, transmitted, filtered, enhanced ....) result
from the direct das (thought) and action of the speaker.  Or are those
words as a result of reproduction of that original speaking.

Here's one that takes technology out of it -- what of an echo?  If you
hear the same brocha multiple times due to an echo do you answer amen,
amen, amen, ....

Carl Singer


From: Jonathan Sperling <sperling@...>
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:21:27 -0400
Subject: Early Kiddush on Shemini Atzeret

Perets Mett wrote:

      I am puzzled how one can make kiddush before nakht on Shmini
      Atseres, even if you eat in the sukka. (Irrespective of the issue
      with shehecheyonu)

      Surely if it is not yet nakht, there is an obligation to say
      "...leisheiv basuko" before eating.. On the other one can hardly
      add "...leisheiv basuko" to the kiddush of Shmini Atseres!

For precisely this reason, most acharonim agree that one should not eat
until after nightfall on Shemini Atzeret.  See Mishna Berura siman 678,
seif katan 7, and Sha'ar Hatziyun siman 11.


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:20:35 +0100
Subject: Re: Early Shemini Aseret

on 5/7/05 10:41 am, Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...> wrote:
> Next week was Shemini Aseret, and as we forgot to ask, we had a problem:
> where should they eat? In the Succa? But they are making a Shemini
> Aseret Kiddush and Shehehiyanu. Outside the Succa? But it is still
> Succot. This question rarely occurs because of Hakafot in Israel, but we
> had no time for Hakafot. I don't know if this was the right thing to do,
> but they did a contradiction - tarte desatrey - that ate in the Succa.

This is what we do every year in Chuts la'arets on Shemini Aseret
because of sfeika deyoma, in that it might really be Hoshanna Rabba.

Martin Stern

From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:53:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Early Shemini Aseret

> From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
> Next week was Shemini Aseret, and as we forgot to ask, we had a problem:
> where should they eat? In the Succa? But they are making a Shemini
> Aseret Kiddush and Shehehiyanu. Outside the Succa? But it is still
> Succot.

If one has occasion to eat (or sleep) during the twilight leading into
Sh'mini, one is obligated to do so in the succah on account of safek
Sh'vi'i (and, consequently, the succah always remains muktza throughout

The solution: You can arrange to make Kiddush in the succah, but avoid
any need for Bircas Leisheiv.  The shehecheyanu may be said since you
are mekabbel yom tov, even though it is still chol hamoed on the

You would wash, say Hamotzi and Leisheiv, and start to eat in the succah
(eating a shiur before sunset).  Then, whether before sunset or during
twilight, you could say Kiddush, including Shehacheyanu, and eat in the


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:28:31 +0100
Subject: Re: Kaddish at a minyan you're not davening with

on 5/7/05 11:25 am, Stephen Phillips <admin@...> wrote:
> The Yalkut Yosef (admittedly a Sefardi Sefer) writes that learning Torah
> for the Ilui Nishmas HaMeis (elevation of the Soul of the deceased) is
> better than saying Kaddish. So in such circumstances as you describe, it
> can't do any harm to learn a schtikel Torah.

And the Kitsur (an Ashkenazi sefer) writes much the same, that learning
Torah and doing acts of chessed are of much greater value to the niftar
than saying kaddish, let alone fighting for the right to do so in those
"real" Ashkenazi congregations, as Mike calls them, where only one
person says each kaddish.

Martin Stern


From: HB <halfull@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:38:47 -0400
Subject: Kiddush Levana on Yom-Tov and Shabbos

In response to the original question of why Kidddush Levana is not said
on Yom-Tov and only said on Shabbos if it is the last possible
opportunity for saying it I have encountered several answers. Most seem
to say that it is not done because of "Kabalah" reasons. Not being much
of a fan of "Mikabalah" I did loads of research but have not found any
answers that left me with a satisfied feeling. In addition in my humble
opinion most "Mikabalah" answers usually arise because the original
practical reason has been forgotten.

With that prelude I am pleased to report that I just heard a guess that
actually leaves me with a satisfied feeling so here goes.

Kiddush Levana should be said after looking directly at the new moon.
Looking directly at the new moon entails going outside the Synagogue
(exceptions allow looking through a window in a place of danger, etc.)
and reciting Kiddush Levana. Since I would venture to guess nobody knows
the words to Kiddush Levana by heart, Siddurim would then be carried
outdoors on Shabbos and/or Yom-tov into a Reshus Harabim or Carmelis. To
avoid this problem "mikabalah" we dont say Kiddush Levana on Shabbos or

However in the course of my research I discovered that numerous
Synagogues in Europe used to have Kiddush Levana either inscribed or
painted on the walls outside the Shul. Does anyone know if those shuls
used to say Kiddush Levana on Shabbos or Yom-Tov?


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:12:12 +0100
Subject: Re: Mechitza at Funeral Parlour and Placement of Cohanim

on 5/7/05 10:41 am, I. Balbin <isaac@...> wrote:
> At present this is a hot issue in Melbourne.
> At any rate, the situation in the main society in Melbourne has always
> [...]
> A renovation took place to enlarge and modernise the parlour.  Two
> important changes occurred.
> [...]
> There has been an outcry from many regarding this. The argument has been
> that whilst financial and operational control is effectively in the
> hands of a number of people, those people (perhaps Zayin Tuvei Ho-ir ---
> honourable community representatives) should not have changed the set up
> without full consultation of the mainstream group of Orthodox Kehilas,
> all who use the facility.  It is understood that the Rabbinic Council of
> the State (the set of Communal Rabbis) were not consulted, although
> apparently a Rabbinic ruling was obtained.  The Melbourne Beis Din was
> also not consulted on the matter.
> There would appear to be an extreme amount of Evah (acrimony) that has
> been generated with allegations of forced "extremist orthodox practice"
> being foisted on a "largely traditional" but respectful Community.
> I'm interested to hear other's perspectives on this problem from a
> Halachik framework. Clearly the Rabbi(s) who were consulted decided that
> the need for the Mechitza was so fundamental that it outweighed any
> level of Aivo (acrimony) that might be generated against the frum
> practicing community. That in of itself, in light of the fact that there
> was already an established practice which must have had some implicit
> Rabbinic impramatur is interesting.

I fear this is not an atypical example of the way some organisations are
run. Often changes are made to suit those in control but which upset
others who use the facilities. The former may claim to have the approval
of Gedolim, whose names they are not prepared to disclose, or some vague
Da'at Torah but how much credence can one give to such anonymous views?
I know of a similar case that is unfolding right now in Manchester and
suspect it happens all too often around the Jewish world. Have others
had similar experiences with chevra kaddishah gabbaim, shul executives
or people who run other communal organisations? What can one do to
prevent such autocratic behaviour?

Martin Stern


From: .cp. <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 8:55:39 -0700
Subject: Secular Translation of the Torah

[The following URL points to the article:
New Light on the Torah - A review of "The Five Books of Moses: A
Translation with Commentary" by Robert Alter. Review by Jaroslav
Pelikan. Robert Alter is Professor of Hebrew and Comparative Literature
at the University of California, Berkeley and author of the 1981 book
"The Art of Biblical Narrative". Mod.]


Where to begin? Well, how about : is it permitted to even read this


From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:06:06 -0400
Subject: Treatment of a worker -- was second job / volunteering

> In 1978 I got a job in Atlanta as a typesetting for a Jewish
> newspaper. Although the starting salary was very low, I was assured that
> after 2 months, my performance would be reviewed and if satisfactory,
> the salary would be increased. Nearly 3 months went by before I could
> get a meeting with the publisher, who said that he remembered their
> promise but that they were not in great shape financially and I should
> consider the difference in salary between their paper and a secular job
> "tzedakah" for the Jewish community. I told him that I believed in
> picking my own charities, thank you, and quit to find another job. I
> wouldn't be surprised if this same mindset is true in other Jewish
> media.

Would someone like to venture an halachic opinion re: the publisher's
behavior vis a vis a treatment of a worker?  Given that a Jewish
newspaper is a voice of the Jewish community this seems most relevant.

Carl Singer


From: Russell Jay Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:25:39 GMT
Subject: Re: Yitgadal-yitgadell -- HITPAEL means INTERACTIVE

Ira Jacobson (v48#80) asks about the meaning of YITGADEL.  Toby (v48#82)
states "there are many examples of hispael where the meaning is not

On the Rashi website at url http://www.Rashiyomi.com/dt29-18a.htm I
suggest that the HITPAEL means INTERACTIVE (not reflexive). Here are
some punchy examples:

1) Gn26-20a: Ayin-Shin-Kuph means to WITHOLD wages. The hitpael form
would mean to INTERACTIVELY WITHOLD WAGES-- that is to BICKER about
property(Give and take on ownership)

2) Ex08-05a The root Pay-Aleph-Resh means to GLORIFY. The hitpael would
mean to CHALLENGE (Interactively glorify)

3)Nu11-18a Kuph-Dalet-Shin means to DEDICATE. The hitpael would indicate

4) Hence since PLL means to JUDGE, HITPALEL means to INTERACTIVELY
JUDGE: It refers to a prayer where you e.g. say "God I want this...I
really need it"..  and then e.g. say "But maybe this is the reason I
havent gotten it till now" and then eg say "I repent of former
behavior...". In other words HITPALEL is not so much SELF JUDGEMENT as
SELF REFLECTION IN GODS PRESENCE. It is verbally working thru using
prayer as a medium on ones merits and what one really deserves.

Russell Jay Hendel;http://www.Rashiyomi.com/


End of Volume 48 Issue 86