Volume 51 Number 88
                    Produced: Wed Apr  5  5:28:05 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Age and Fasting
Counting for a Minyan (2)
         [Leah S. Gordon, Janice Gelb]
Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan (4)
         [Ira L. Jacobson, <chips@...>, Martin Stern, Avi Feldblum]
Loud Kedusha
         [Baruch J. Schwartz]
Neturei Karta
         [Dov Teichman]
Non-religious as part of a minyan
         [Yona Newman]
Portable Eiruv for Camping
         [Perets Mett]
Second Day Yom Tov
         [Eli Turkel]
Yotzer Or Follow Up
         [Wayne Feder]


From: c.halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 11:48:49 -0500
Subject: Age and Fasting

Shalom to Klal Yisrael:

Chana Luntz wrote in mail-jewish 51/85 that >> In the Sephardi
tradition, kohanim duchan at mincha on a fast day if they are fasting,
even outside of Israel.  That means that, while we are not at all
convinced that he ought to be fasting at his age and condition,
especially the minor fasts, there is no way he is not going to do it,
because by not duchaning he is forced to make what amounts to a public
announcement to that effect - whereas none of the other older gentleman
are forced to so publically announce their weakness.<<

Speaking as a non-posek it seems to me that since the shul members
obviously care about him, his rabbi should consult with the older
gentleman's doctor and - assuming the doctor agrees - tell him he is
**halachically forbidden** to fast the whole day.

In such a case, I would hope that he would be allowed to duchen and/or
be called to the Torah for an aliya with nobody thinking any less of

Kol Tuv,
Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 08:42:25 -0700
Subject: Counting for a Minyan

Chana is much better prepared than I am to discuss the halakhic issues
around who counts for a minyan.

My main focus, though, was how upset many uf us get during conversations
in Jewish circles about this sort of thing, because so few official
Orthodox voices even think that we women should matter as official
participants in the community.

If I were in charge, rabbis and laypeople would have been working day
and night for the past 2000 years to *try* to make sure that women were
counted for a minyan, as full participants, or to at least apologize to
us if that couldn't be the case.  As I said originally, I'm not saying
the eventual answer has to be "yes" for me to be happy.  But the idea
that it is important to try to include us has to be a non-negotiable for
anyone who respects that women are people.

Counting for a minyan is fundamentally different than almost every other
example I can think of (counting as a Cohen; being able to say various
brachot; counting as a firstborn; etc.).  A person's basic dignity is at
stake if she doesn't "count" as a person in the community.  And,
Jewishly, the community is officially counted in terms of the religious

If you don't end up counting me, but you say you really wish you could,
that begins to be satisfactory.  If you say "it doesn't matter" then
that is totally unsatisfactory.

--Leah Sarah Reingold Gordon

From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 15:11:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Counting for a Minyan

Chana Luntz <Chana@...> wrote:
> Leah Gordon writes:
> > I cannot express easily how painful it is for religious, involved,
> > Jewish women to read about how the tiniest shred of minyan interest is
> > enough to count a male Jew.  
> Of course to articulate any opposing view (ie why it would be a good
> idea), one would need to try and understand what it is that a woman
> forfits due to not being counted.  It is not like being baal koreh or
> shatz, where one may get praise for one's good voice or knowledge.
> What is it that a man gets out of it all? Schar mitzvah?  Is it that
> which distresses you?

I obviously can't answer for Leah but I can say for myself that when my
father a"h(not a very observant man) died and we were holding shiva
minyanim in his house, the fact that there were only 9 men one night and
they started calling completely non-identifying men in his apartment
building to make up a minyan when I was sitting right there, fully
conversant with the service, definitely distressed me.

-- Janice


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:41:09 +0300
Subject: Re: Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan

Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...> stated in mail-jewish Vol. 51 #79
Digest, first quoting me:

>> (I would point out--to the best of my knowledge--that the commandment
>> for Kohanim to bless is de'oraita if there are at least two Kohanim
>> (Ko tevarKHU), but only derabbanan in the case of a single Kohen.)

> I'm not sure I follow the logic.  If it is a rabbinical injunction for
> a lone kohen to bless, then I would imagine we would be more lenient
> if if there are no kohanim around, and less lenient if there were
> other kohanim present?

Well, I was trying to follow the trend in MJ of guessing what the poseq
*really* meant.

My point was that when R' Ovadia Yosef says that we should convince the
mehalel-Shabbat Kohen not to bless the congregation if he is the only
Kohen, perhaps the rav said thus because the requirement to bless in
this case was only rabbinical.  And thus failing to do so is not so
terrible.  On the other hand, when the rav permits such a Kohen to bless
alongside other Kohanim, perhaps he does so because he does not want to
prevent the Kohen from performing a Torah obligation.

IRA L. JACOBSON         

From: <chips@...>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 12:15:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan

> I must be missing something here.  Why on earth would someone who
> "brazenly desecrates Shabbat as an act of rebellion against HKBH" want
> to join a Minyan?

Excellent question and one I have asked a few times to people. The
answers I've usually gotten are either they are attending as a social
activity or respect of parents.


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:43:11 +0000
Subject: Re: Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:49:15 +0200 Shoshana L. Boublil
<toramada@...> wrote:

>> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
>> The requirement of ten adult males for a davar shebikdusha is based on
>> the eidah of ten spies excluding Calev and Yehoshua. This might indicate
>> that we do not require ten exceptionally righteous individuals but it is
>> difficult to extrapolate to include people who brazenly desecrate
>> Shabbat as an act of rebellion against HKBH. Where one draws the line to
>> include or exclude any individual is an exceptionally difficult matter
>> and might well vary depending on the circumstances.
> I must be missing something here.  Why on earth would someone who
> "brazenly desecrates Shabbat as an act of rebellion against HKBH" want
> to join a Minyan?

He might want to say kaddish for a deceased parent. You would be
surprised how many people who have little interest in, and often are
positively hostile to, Jewish tradition yet are very superstitious when
it comes to saying kaddish on a yahrzeit.

Martin Stern

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 
Subject: Re: Counting Mechalel Shabbos for Minyan

I agree with the statements that someone who has no/little interest in
Jewish tradition will often come to shul to say Kaddish for a parent,
and that there are even cases where the person is positively hostile to
Jewish tradition and still comes due to superstitious concerns. However,
in terms of the discussions on a Mechalel Shabbos being counted for a
Minyan, the great majority of cases in my experience are people whose
act of Chilul Shabbat are NOT a case of "brazenly desecrates Shabbat as
an act of rebellion against HKBH". They basically believe that what they
do is OK, often based on common practices within the larger Jewish
community they live in. They are not making any "statement" by "driving"
to shul on Shabbat (i.e. "act of rebellion against HKBH"), if anything
they are making a statement about driving "to shul" on Shabbat (i.e. act
of affermation of their connection to Klal Yisrael). This is a
sociological change that has occurred within the last 100-150
years. That is why I am hesitant to simply accept the quotes from
earlier poskim that have been brought by some members of the list on
this subject. The reality has changed, and that is why you are seeing
some changes in the recent piskei halacha. This is the fundimental
issue, in my opinion, about how we treat "mechalel shabbat b'farhesia"

Avi Feldblum


From: Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 16:29:49 +0300
Subject: Loud Kedusha

In MJ 51:82 Joel Rich asks: "other than ... true lack of halachik time
left, can you find a halachik source that allows for not saying the full
chazarat hashatz?"

Please refer to my lengthy treatment of "the loud kedusha" (the title of
which was intended to translate the Yiddish "Hoiche Kedushah"), MJ
50:91.  Jan 4, 2006, for all of the possibilities.

Baruch Schwartz


From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 07:41:39 EDT
Subject: Re: Neturei Karta

SBA <sba@...> writes:

> And the Satmar Rebbe in the abovementioned sefer CLEARLY writes
> against any idea of handing Israel over to the Arabs CV.

Where can I find that in VaYoel Moshe?

BTW I think Neturei Karta believe that the Satmar Rebbe would agree with
their activities/views.

Dov Teichman


From: Yona Newman <yona_n.geo@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 09:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Non-religious as part of a minyan

I have been following this discussion with much interest and also some
concern. In our synagogue, I have never seen anyone turned away or made

In one of the publications that we get in shul, "Maenai Hayeshua"
(sorry, I don't know how to translate that) issue # 241, there is a
wonderful article by Rav Raphael Feuerstein (my spelling) who was asked
the following question by someone who said he had stopped being
religious.  He said he still wants to pray in shul from time to time,
but he feels that everyone is looking at him and they don't want him to
pray with them.

The Rav replied (my free translation of the first part of his answer):
"Hashem requires what is in our heart, He is not interested in the
length of our hair or the color of our suit. If a Jew enters a synagogue
to pray, he is wanted and loved by the Ba-al Habayit (Master of the
house). The ba-al habayit is not the congregation, nor the gabaim
(wardens) nor the Rabbi nor those who sit in the special seats at the
east end. The ba-al habayit is the Holy One Blessed be He, to whom we
turn with a broken heart."

If anyone is interested I can scan the whole article and email it.

Yona Newman,


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:59:21 +0100
Subject: Re: Portable Eiruv for Camping

> A cousin made exactly that trip.  He found that fellow campers hung
> their wet laundry on the eruv to dry.  After explaining to them that
> it has a religious purpose, they removed their laundry from it.


Could you please elaborate on what problem is caused to the mechitsos by
hanging laundry on the wires of the tsuras hapesach?

(I guess that is what you meant by "hung their wet laundry on the

Perets Mett


From: Eli Turkel <eliturkel@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 17:08:35 +0200
Subject: Second Day Yom Tov

> From what I remember, there is a wideranging disagreement among the
> rishonim on what exactly decides where people keep 2 days of yomtov, and
> that the Rambam IIRC definitely holds that there are places in Eretz
> Yisrael that *do* keep two days.
> If this is the case, and I assume those more learned will know the
> details, then there is far *more* than a "hava amina" for residents of
> E.Y. to keep 2 days.

To the best of my knowledge the Rambam is a "shittat yachid".  The story
goes that both Chazon Ish and the Brisker Rov kept the second day of yom
tov in EY lechumrah. However, both were very silent about it because it
was such an unusual act. The overwhelmimg minhag is to keep 1 day of yom
tov even in Eilat and other places which dont have halachot of EY for
terumot and maaserot. Soldiers in Lebabnon keep one day and dont act
like Israeli in chutz la-aretz.

Eli Turkel


From: Wayne Feder <federfamily@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:01:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Yotzer Or Follow Up

In reply to all the replies to my original question....

I too am not sure what the Ramoh was referring to when he said "birchat
Yotzer" my suspicion is that it is referring to the end bracha...of
Yotzer Hameorot...it is a Bracha Arichta...but..that is the
question...Does the Shatz have to say it out loud? Would not logic
dictate that he should???  Especially in light of the original set up of
this section (the Kedusha Deyishiva etc..) If the Mechaber and Ramah in
Siman 59 are referring to the opening Bracha..I would like to understand
how that conclusion is being made. Especially in light that it follows a
discussion regarding the middle part with the "kedushas" etc..

Someone mentioned tefilah khilcasah can you advise as to where it is
found in it???



End of Volume 51 Issue 88