Volume 52 Number 10
                    Produced: Fri Jun  9  6:25:26 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

All-Night "Learning"
         [Tzvi Stein]
kaddish, mitzvot & emotional needs
         [Carl A. Singer]
Kiruv for Women (Aish)
         [Rabbi Ed Goldstein]
Mrs. Perl Hendel zichronah livracha (was "RE: Women saying kaddish")
         [Michael Poppers]
One kaddish per day
         [Carl A. Singer]
Religious Zionism on the Fringes #2
         [Seth & Sheri Kadish]
Saying kaddish (2)
         [Carl A. Singer, Russell Hendel]
Scandanavian Trip
         [David Hurwitz]
Women saying Kaddish (3)
         [Rose Landowne, Joseph Kaplan, Meir Shinnar]


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:19:51 -0400
Subject: All-Night "Learning"

I didn't stay up all night Shavuos ... instead I learned part of the
night with my kids and then went to sleep and went to a minyan that
started at the normal time (not sunrise).  Then we had lunch, and I took
my kids to the completely deserted shul in the afternoon to learn more.

It seems that people are shocked by what I did, but it is considered
totally acceptable for someone to spend the whole night schmoozing,
smoking, eating cake, drinking coffee, and occasionally dozing off over
a sefer (while their older kids are unsupervised going wild outside the
shul with their friends), then dozing through davening, then sleeping
until lunch, eating, and going back to sleep until Mincha.  Meanwhile
their wife is stuck dealing with the kids who were too young to stay
awake all night going wild, and are thus awake in the daytime.  Then the
kids who were awake all night, not to mention the father, can't fall
asleep that night and have sleeping problems for the next several days.

Any explanation for this attitude?


From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:11:18 -0400
Subject: kaddish, mitzvot & emotional needs

From: Esther Posen <eposen@...>
> I quote from an earlier post "It's not an issue of hiddur mitzvah it's
> one of meeting emotional needs." Mitzvot are not given to us to fill our
> emotional needs, though an act of chesed could fill the emotional need
> of the recipient of the chesed.

If Kaddish is not a mitzvah for a woman then the above doesn't ring.  In
any case saying kaddish, mitzvah or not, may fill an emotional need.

To say that mitzvot were not given to us to fill our emotional needs is
correct -- however that is not at all equivalent to saying (some)
mitzvot are not filling (some) emotional needs for (some) people.

Similarly, if acts of chesed are mitzvot then doesn't this apply to them

Additionally, it's not either-or.  Say Kaddish or do acts of chesed.
They are essentially independent and one can do both of so wishes.



From: <bernieavi@...> (Rabbi Ed Goldstein)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 07:34:12 -0400
Subject: Kiruv for Women (Aish)

What is different about kiruv for women?  I understand the need to have
a session for women only to attend since that is proper, but I don't
understand how having women and rabbonim (curious how they are the only
men who are allowed into the 'ladies room') explain matters is different
than perhaps laymen and how the material itself may differ.

Rabbi Ed Goldstein


From: <MPoppers@...> (Michael Poppers)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 08:05:28 -0400
Subject: Mrs. Perl Hendel zichronah livracha (was "RE: Women saying kaddish")

In M-J V52#09 Digest, RJHendel wrote:
> My mother, may she rest in peace, passed away Rosh Chodesh Nissan.

May your mother (who, as you undoubtedly meant to say, passed away on
R'Ch' _Sivan_ of this year), quite an amazing lady, be a successful
Heavenly defender for your family and all of Klal Yisrael.

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager


From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:05:57 -0400
Subject: One kaddish per day

>Amazingly, mearly everyone seems to be missing the point.
>> Everyone seems to jump quickly to remind us of what we all know -- that
>> women do not have to say kaddish AND that one kaddish per day is
>> halachically sufficient.
>> Let's talk to the second point first.  How many men do you know who
>> would be "satisfied" with saying the bare minimum one kaddish per day.
>> For example, if there was no minyan until borchu and again after none
>> after aleynu.  It's not an issue of hiddur mitzvah it's one of meeting
>> emotional needs.
>As it happens, I would be satisfied even if I could not say even one
>kaddish because there were so many other aveilim with higher precedence
>in my shul where only one person says each kaddish. NOT saying kaddish
>under such circumstances is a greater honour for the departed than
>forcing oneself on the tsibbur to say it (see Kitsur Shulchan Arukh)

clearly for those whose minhag is that only one person says kaddish --
he is still saying it on behalf of all the aveilim present.  I was not
talking about WHO said kaddish, but that kaddish wasn't even said.

To put this into your context, consider that you went to shul and when
it came to a normal point where one of the availim (possibly you) would
normally say kaddish (again, on behalf of all the aveilim) and the
congregation skipped kaddish and went on without.


From: Seth & Sheri Kadish <skadish@...>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:15:16 +0200
Subject: Religious Zionism on the Fringes #2

Religious Zionism on the Fringes #2

(These posts are meant to help people discover & understand "real-life"
Religious Zionism in Israel, a world that few English-speaking Jews
really know from the inside, even including many who live in
Israel. This post is about how even "mainstream" Religious Zionism has
chosen to live on the social fringes of Israel.)

"BeSheva's Convergence Plan"

by Elyashiv Reichner

(Translated from: Nekudah #290, Iyyar 5766)

In his personal column, Imannuel Shiloh -- the editor of Arutz Sheva's
weekly newspaper -- shared with his readers a Shabbat experience at a
religious mountaintop settlement in Samaria. That Shabbat evening,
Maccabi Tel Aviv played its half-season final, and Shiloh was very
pleased by the fact that he didn't even know who won the game until
after Shabbat was over.

In the spirit of "BeSheva," Shiloh also connected the Maccabi game with
the current struggle against the uprooting of settlements in Judea and
Samaria: "On a settlement where it is possible to spend an entire
Shabbat without hearing the results of the Maccabi game," he wrote, "it
is also possible to hope for the emergence of a leadership that knows
how to be loyal to its own truth, to free itself from dependence on the
secular, materialistic Israel, and to make an honest, pointed moral and
ethical statement to the Israeli public."

According to Shiloh, it is important to add that only on settlements
that are disengaged from Israeli society, like the one he describes with
such pleasure, could the rabbi of such a settlement say the following
(in an interview at Arutz 7 a week and a half before the last election):
"The situation on the ground is different than what the polls are
saying! We meet people working in the field, and we get the sense that
Israeli voters change their minds easily... We have been given the
opportunity to establish the next government and decide who will lead
it! Any party that wants to join the coalition will have to follow us,
the leading force."

A week and a half later it became clear, to our great dismay, that the
"leading force" meant to establish the government actually won only nine
Knesset seats. That is but two seats more than the Pensioner's party, a
fly-by-night party set up on a Tel-Avivian whim just two months before
the elections.

The reward for disengagement from Israeli society is to spend an entire
Shabbat without knowing whether or not Maccabi won the game. But when it
comes to the big questions, the heavy cost of Religious Zionist
convergence into homogeneous "bubbles" is a lack of feeling for where Am
Yisrael is really at. It seems that besides watching Maccabi games,
Shiloh's "secular, materialistic Israel," also votes on the future of
the mountaintop settlements of Samaria.

It is certainly possible to continue converging, to continue
disengaging, as the "BeSheva" people urge us to do. But it is also
important to remember that life in "bubbles" only remains warm and
pleasant so long as the people outside the bubble aren't trying to pop

Next post: A hard-core "Chardal" response to Elyashiv Reichner. Stay


Seth (Avi) Kadish
A Guide to Reading Nevi'im & Ketuvim


From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:13:53 -0400
Subject: Saying kaddish

> My basic response based on the above analysis is that since I am already
> tied to the Jewish community (thru synagogues, charity organizations and
> Torah institutions like mljewish:)) I see no reason to borrow time from
> my other activities and therefore I am continuing to go to synagogue at
> the same pace I do the rest of the year.
> Russell

Of course you're free to go at your own pace.  But how would you feel if
when you went expecting to say kaddish, it was skipped.


From: Russell Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 22:13:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Saying kaddish


You missed my point. If my children are estranged from Judaism they
should be encouraged to say Kaddish to get them involved. If however my
children ARE ALREADY involved then my memory would be honored more by
them CONTINUING their current involvement. I think that makes enormous
sense. Telling them they have to do something additional might "turn
them off"

Russell Hendel; http://www.Rashiyomi.com/


From: <DAVIDHDOC@...> (David Hurwitz)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 09:56:58 EDT
Subject: Scandanavian Trip

My wife and I are planning a trip to Copenhagen, Oslo, and Stockholm in
July. Any thoughts about shuls and hotels nearby, kosher food, shabbat
accomodations, and places to visit in the cities as well as the
respective countries.
Thank you. 
David Hurwitz


From: <ROSELANDOW@...> (Rose Landowne)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:14:59 EDT
Subject: Re: Women saying Kaddish

      Someone should explain to her in the most tactful and empathetic
      way that it is a much greater zekhut for her parent to do extra
      chessed in their memory rather than say kaddish. Also, even for a
      son, there is no obligation to say more than one kaddish a day
      though customarily they say any that are available.

      > Would it be proper to have a man who is not a cheyuv say all of
      > the kaddishes (ostensibly for her parent) so that she might
      > still say kaddish concurrently with him.

      Surely this would constitute a tirkha detsibbura (inconveniencing
      the congregation) quite apart from verging on reciting a berakhah
      she'eino tserikha (an unnecessary blessing)

      > There are no male relatives saying kaddish for this person.

      So what. Kaddish is an expression of filial piety and not some
      magical rite which raises the soul of the departed. Where there
      are no sons, there is no real need for anyone to say
      kaddish. There is far too much superstition associated with
      kaddish (and yizkor) and it is time the whole matter is put in

Keep in mind that the woman is getting Nachat Ruach from her ability to
honor her parent at this difficult time, has probably made great effort
to get to shul, and is probably feeling like an only somewhat welcome
guest at the minyan. Whether this kaddish  is a requirement or not, she
should be lauded for her efforts and encouraged to continue. An outloud
Kaddish should be part of every public davening. Why should anyone, male
or female, at this vulnerable  time, have to worry about coming into a
shul and finding that Kaddish is being skipped unless they assert

Rose Landowne

From: Joseph Kaplan <penkap@...>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:25 -0400
Subject: Women saying Kaddish

Martin Stern writes:

> Joseph is misquoting me when he writes that I said a woman "should not
> say kaddish". I did not express an opinion on the permissibility, or
> otherwise, of so doing. What I meant was that doing extra chessed in
> memory of the departed was a preferred alternative and that applies to
> men as well as women (see Kitsur Shulchan Arukh)."

I apologize to Martin for, inadvertently, mischaracterizing what he
said.  What I now understand him to mean is that in any situation where
a person who is saying kaddish for someone who died is unable to say
kaddish (e.g., a woman in a shul which does not let women say kaddish
alone or, indeed, does not allow women to say kaddish period, or a man
in a shul where only one person says kaddish), he would explain that
under such circumstances doing chessed in memory of the departed is a
preferred alternative.  I, of course, have no problem with that
position; indeed, it is a warm and sensitive one in a shul where women
cannot say kaddish alone.  And my point was -- and I believe it is still
valid -- that there are many shuls where that is not the case, and
Martin's solution would not work in such a shul.

Joseph Kaplan

From: Meir Shinnar <Meir.Shinnar@...>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:01:17 -0400
Subject: RE: Women saying Kaddish

> I quote from an earlier post "It's not an issue of hiddur mitzvah it's
> one of meeting emotional needs." Mitzvot are not given to us to fill
> our emotional needs, though an act of chesed could fill the emotional
> need of the recipient of the chesed.

While for the woman, saying kaddish might not be a hiddur mitzva, for
the community to facilitate that would not just be a hiddur mitzva - but
a mitzva - as by her rationale of fulfilling the emotional need of an
orphan (and denying her that right is violating the issur of ona'at
devarim of an orphan..)

Meir Shinnar


End of Volume 52 Issue 10