Volume 52 Number 11
                    Produced: Mon Jun 12  6:50:32 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

All-Night "Learning" (5)
         [Stephen Phillips, Carl A. Singer, Batya Medad, Martin Stern,
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Artificial Meat, Kosher McDonalds, and the Baal Shem Tov?
         [David Brotsky]
Kol Kavua and Rov
         [Abe Brot]
Multiple Kaddishes
         [Sholom Parnes]
Sheva Berochot
         [Avraham Etzion]


From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:23:41 +0100
Subject: Re: All-Night "Learning"

> From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
> I didn't stay up all night Shavuos ... instead I learned part of the
> night with my kids and then went to sleep and went to a minyan that
> started at the normal time (not sunrise).  Then we had lunch, and I took
> my kids to the completely deserted shul in the afternoon to learn more.

> It seems that people are shocked by what I did, but it is considered
> totally acceptable for someone to spend the whole night schmoozing,
> smoking, eating cake, drinking coffee, and occasionally dozing off over
> a sefer (while their older kids are unsupervised going wild outside the
> shul with their friends), then dozing through davening, then sleeping
> until lunch, eating, and going back to sleep until Mincha.  Meanwhile
> their wife is stuck dealing with the kids who were too young to stay
> awake all night going wild, and are thus awake in the daytime.  Then the
> kids who were awake all night, not to mention the father, can't fall
> asleep that night and have sleeping problems for the next several days.

> Any explanation for this attitude?

I sympathise with what your approach. However, it seems to me that if
the Shul doesn't make some arrangements for the kids to have their own
learning sessions, then they shouldn't be taken to the Leil Limud.
There should also be more organised learning for the adults to prevent
the schmoozing etc.

I think also that how staying up all night affects you in the days to
come may give rise to leniency in allowing you to sleep some part (or,
perhaps, the whole) of the night. My son is coming to the end of his
third year of learning in Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavneh. He takes his learning
very seriously and felt that if he stayed up all night on Shavuos he
would not be able to learn properly the next day. He therefore was given
permission from one of his Rabbis to learn until a certain time on
Shavuos night and then go to sleep for a few hours and then get up for a
Neitz [sunrise] Minyan.

Stephen Phillips

From: <casinger@...> (Carl A. Singer)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:09:35 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: All-Night "Learning"

What you did is fine -- why are you asking others for approval?  Clearly
the age of your children and the impact of an all-night session on your
part need to be considered.

It's clear from your characterization of all night learning as drinking,
smoking, shmoozing and snoozing that your experiences with overnight
learning is considerably different than my own.  Although my two younger
sons chose to spend Yom Tov at yeshivas instead of home -- I still found
the learning stimulating (our Rabbi gave shiurim throughout the night.)

BTW - The best experience I recall was when I lived in Edison, NJ.
There the Rabbis for the various shuls as well as the Roshei Yeshiva &
Rebbeim at RJJ and others would rotate from shul to shul throughout the
night.  So going to your own shul you would be treated to several
outstanding lectures.  It was also a sign of "solidarity" within our

Carl A. Singer, Ph.D.
Passaic, NJ  07055-5328
See my web site:  www.ProcessMakesPerfect.net

From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:36:34 +0200
Subject: All-Night "Learning"

How much of the night is really spent learning?  Not all that much in
most cases, and it's not good for the kids to be running around.  In
Shiloh besides various Hebrew shiurim for men and women in recent years
there are quite a few in English including a whole night's schedule.
For the past few years we've also had an afternoon shiur, which is
well-attended.  Some of the participants are not able to function at
night, and this is a very special opportunity.  This year I gave one of
the night ones.


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:49:58 +0100
Subject: All-Night "Learning"

The idea of learning all night is based on Kabbalistic sources which are
probably incomprehensible to most of us. The few times I tried to do so
were a dismal failure and I probably didn't daven shacharit that Yom Tov
in anything resembling a proper manner. Since then I have slept through
the night like Tzvi and don't feel ashamed to say so. For those who can
manage it, it is fine so long as they are really learning, or saying the
tikkun, and not using it as some sort of social gathering but for the
rest of us perhaps we should heed the message "ministarot nakeini"!

Martin Stern

From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 07:31:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: All-Night "Learning"

While I did not really start staying up all night until my children were
old enough to also do so, I agree that one should not go to the all
night learning session if one intends to behave as described above.
However, most of the people who come to our shul do spend the entire
night in learning. Some people learn until 2 or so and then go home to
sleep and come to the regular minyon.  Some people come to daven at the
5 AM minyon even though they have not been at the all night learning
session. Our Rav has been giving a shiur in the Rambam's Sefer Hamitzvos
which continues the entire night.  Others learn with chavrusas.
Children are supervised and are taken home at an appropriate time
(differing for each age group) if they cannot learn.  Some shuls give
different shiurim over the course of the night (sucha as an hour shiur
starting every hour on the hour). Perhaps you should speak with the rav
of your shul, or whoever sets up the shiurim to help improve matters.  A
more structured program would I am sure help matters.

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<Sabba.Hillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water


From: David Brotsky <davetrek@...>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:52:57 -0400
Subject: Artificial Meat, Kosher McDonalds, and the Baal Shem Tov?

In looking at some old mail.jewish issues, I came across the discussion
last year about artifical meat and what the halachot of such a product
might be.

While several posters raised some issues with the topic, when I looked
through the archives I could not find anyone who answered the basic
questions about this, nor where any conclusions developed other than its
almost certainly not to be cosnidered as 'eiver min hachai'. I am
therefore raising the topic again. If I am in error and this is covered
somewhere, please point out the reference.

Basically, this artificial meat refers to meat that is 'grown' in a lab
from basic elements, just as scientists are now starting to grow human
organs, etc. Apparently, it may be possible to grow such meat and make
it look and taste identical to 'animal meat' at some point, without any
animal flesh being involved.

For further details, here is a site to visit:


So my questions are as follows:

a) For our purposes, assume that 'artificial meat' could be made
entirely articially in the lab entirely from basic chemicals, without
any animal flesh to start the process. Would such meat be considered
'fleishig' or pareve (assuming no dairy ingredients are required to grow
the meat)? We already have items that are created in the laboratory,
based on animal proteins, but which are considered pareve, such as
rennet made via DNA in the lab which is called Chymosin. Would
artificial meat be treated the same way, and be labelled pareve?

b) I have read some speculation on the web about the economics of
artificial meat. Apparently at some point in the future it may be much
cheaper to create artificial meat than real meat. In light of mad cow
and other diseases, one can imagine a day when companies such as
Mcdonalds would prefer an artificial product simply for its safety,
consistent texture and reliability. If this occured, it might be
possible to have many types of businesses become kosher, just like we
take for granted having kosher dunkin donuts in some places(which have
their own issues as we saw recently in these pages).

In such a world, would we then be able to have true 'artifical meat'
mcdonalds cheeseburgers, which would taste the same as 'animal meat'
cheeseburgers? Imagine the issues that would arise in terms of
differentiating this stuff. Perhaps kosher meat would become as
ubiquitious as kosher ketchup and mayonaise...would the fact that meat
is treated very strictly under halacha for certain purposes mean that
there is something wrong with this picture? Would the appearance of
pareve 'artificial meat' that looks and tastes like real meat raise any
marit ayin problems, for example? Would it be ok to have pareve meat,
but not mix it with milk products?

Perhaps this is similar to the issue that crops up every pesach over
pesach cakes and pesach noodles, which each year get closer and closer
to the real stuff, such that the essence of pesach is changing from what
was considered pesach even 50 years ago - or will it be like quinoa,
where people have already begun to label it as kitniyot (see recent
items in mail.jewish) even though all admit its not in any way similar
to kitniyot, just because it 'seems like it ought to be kitniyot'...will
some seek to forbid this artifical meat just because of such appearance
issues, when such 'artifical meat' becomes indistinguishable from the
'animal meat'?

This entire topic reminds me of a story I read recently about the Baal
Shem Tov, from a new book by Yitzhak Buxbaum, "The Light and Fire
of the Baal Shem Tov", published by Continuum.

"The Baal Shem ['Besht'] would often smoke his pipe when preparing to
daven, until it occurred to the Besht that perhaps he was wrong to light
his pipe with a candle made from non-kosher fat. Non-kosher candles are
allowed for common use, though not for Shabbat candles, but what about
for the Baal Shem's pipe? When the Besht realized, after several
days, that this problem was distracting him, writes Buxbaum, "he
jumped up and swore that from then on he would always light his pipe
from a candle of non-kosher fat."

The Baal Shem taught his students, writes Buxbaum, that he could have
easily sworn off such a candle, in accordance with the usual impulse of
people who want to become more pious. But for those kind of people, said
the Besht, "their world grows smaller and smaller," until one becomes
"like a rabbi I once met, who sat on his chair almost the whole Shabbos
with his arms at his side and his legs tucked in for fear of touching
something muktzeh [forbidden on Shabbat] or stepping on an ant. This
morning while smoking my pipe, I heard the voice of what seemed to be my
good inclination whispering in my ear, telling me not to use the
candle. But then I realized that this was actually my yetzer hara, my
evil inclination, and I refused to listen to it because there's no end
to that path."

Its a shame that the Baal Shem Tov's perspective is not more widely held
today for many matters, including this potential one.

Time will tell. If nothing else, this is all certainly 'food for

David Brotsky
Elizabeth, NJ


From: Abe Brot <abrot@...>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:25:18 +0300
Subject: Kol Kavua and Rov

Heshy (<hhandls@...>) writes in v52n06,

      I know a definitional difference between Kol Kavua and Rov: Kol
      Kavua is when you create the doubt (you buy from the store) and
      Rov is when the doubt is created without you (the meat is found

      1) What is the reasoning (svara) behind this difference?  It seems
to me that if you created the doubt, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PROFIT
FROM IT.. For example, if I were to send my non-Jewish maid to buy some
meat, and told her to buy it in ANY butcher store in town. She returns
and says that she doesn't remember in which store she bought the
meat. Even if there are 9 kosher butchers and one treif, I created the
doubt (Kol Kavua) so I can't eat the meat.

On the other hand, if I told her to buy it only at a kosher butcher, and
later the package got mixed with another package of meat, I can eat the
meat because I didn't create the doubt, and I can rely on Rov.

Abe Brot
Petah Tikva


From: Sholom Parnes <merbe@...>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:19:24 +0200
Subject: Multiple Kaddishes

Before Shavuot I attended a parent/student learning evening at the
Steinsaltz yeshiva high school in Kfar Etzion.

The first shiur, given by Rav Dov Singer was all about kaddish.

One of the sources brought was an Aruch Hashulchan that severely
criticised those that add kaddishes.

A story was told of a rabbi that told his congregants about this Aruch

One congregant asked, "Rabbi, was that a d'var Torah?"

"Yes" the Rabbi  answered.

Congregant: "R' Chananiah ben Akashya omer......Yitgadal ve'Yitkadash
shmei rabba...." !

kol tuv



From: Avraham Etzion <atzion@...>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 06:37:09 +0200
Subject: Re: Sheva Berochot

The problem of celebrating one's sheva berachot in conjuction with
another Simcha is "ein mearvim Simcha Besimcha". However it can be
solved if 1)the couple splits from the group into another table and have
their own Sheva Berochot or2)Anonounce that the dessert or other food is
being served in honor of the other couple


End of Volume 52 Issue 11