Volume 52 Number 33
Produced: Wed Jun 28 5:46:50 EDT 2006
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
History of the Mourner's Kaddish
[David Shyovitz]
Kaddish additions (2)
[Yisrael Medad, Ben Katz]
Kaddish and German Minhag
[PM]
Many saying Kaddish
[.cp.]
Minhag Ashkenaz re Kaddish Recitation and Changing Minhogim
[Carl A. Singer]
Reciting Kaddish Quietly (2)
[Stephen Phillips, PM]
Religious intolerance (was Kaddish - adding verses)
[PM]
Yekke minhogim and difficulty of maintaining minority minhogim
[Mordechai]
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From: <davidshy@...> (David Shyovitz)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:50:49 -0400
Subject: History of the Mourner's Kaddish
A brief response to Elazar Teitz's comments on the history of the Mourner's
Kaddish:
> The obligation to recite kaddish is independent of the presence of
> mourners. Its saying is mentioned in the Tur (14th century), before
> the association of kaddish with mourners. That it was said either by
> minors or by adults who could not serve as shaliach tzibbur is
> mentioned by the Mishnah Brurah, quoting the L'vush (16th century).
> This doesn't leave too much time for it to have been said by minors
> but not adults. (Furthermore, not every adult could serve as a
> shaliach tzibbur. In fact, many couldn't daven at all, which is why
> the Amidah is repeated by the shaliach tzibbur in the first place. By
> what logic would it have been given to a minor, but not to an adult
> who did not know enough to be a shaliach tzibbur?)"
Kaddish was associated with mourners (particularly underage mourners)
several hundred years prior to the writing of the Tur. See Mahzor Vitri
pp. 112-13 (in the old Horwitz ed.), Sh. u-t. Rashi #188, various
passages in Roke'ah's commentary on the sidur, in the Or Zaru'a, Sefer
Hasidim, and so on.
Kol tuv,
David Shyovitz
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From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:07:35 +0200
Subject: Kaddish additions
As for the Kaddish additions, Moshe Chalamish's HaKaballah - B'Tfila,
B'Halacha ub'Minhag has a chapter, pgs. 619-626 devoted to the
discussion of a dozen or so variations. The longest seesm to be
Vyatmach Purkaney Yiba vYaitei Meshichay Yikarev Katey vyifrok Amey
vayakanash Gluteiy b'rachmatey in the Machzor Aram Tzuba, Venice 1527.
He ends by bringing a quotation from Shai Agnon, Oreiach Natah LaLoon,
p. 95 where he says, "Ribbono shel Olam, bring already the Mashiach so
we can stop with all the various variations."
Yisrael Medad
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From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:39:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Kaddish additions
>From: Mark Goldin <goldinfamily@...>
>Does anyone know the origin of "ve'yatzmach purkanei v'karev mishichei"
>as in the Sephardic version? Was this part of an "original" version of
>kaddish lost to Ashkenazim, or a Sephardic addition?
When you compare the Ashkenazi and Sephardi rites, the Sephardi
seem to be expanded (eg more adjectives) and more edited (eg rearranging
the words in shacharit shabat after "shochen ad" so that the third
letters of the verbs in the prayer "befi yesharim" spell out "Rivka"
corersponding to the initial letters of the nouns spelling out
"Yitzchak"). It is MUCH more likely that these are additions, rather
than deletions and corruptions in the Ashkenazi rite.
Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>
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From: PM <phminden@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:21:15 +0200
Subject: Re: Kaddish and German Minhag
Mark Goldin wrote:
> This may or may not make the most halachic sense, but for today's
> mourners allowing everyone to say kaddish makes much more sense. Many
> come to shul, and make a point of arriving punctually, so they can say
> every kaddish. Some are unable to act as sha"tz, and in any event, if
> there are several chiyuvim in the community one may only get the
> opportunity to be shat"tz infrequently. I would hazard a guess that
> many mourners would not come regularly for very long if the German
> minhag were the predominant one, and we would lose many a kiruv
> opportunity.
Yes. But we lose many a keirev opportunity by leaving most of the
services in Hebrew, not shifting Shabbes to Sunday, why, even by
prohibiting idols, if you will. I don't want to sound polemic, but my
point is we might indeed get an estranged mourner to show up from time
to time so he can say kaddesh, but we should be careful what we sell him
as Toure or Judaism. You can't be implying that the more observant part
of the community and certainly the rav know that kaddesh is not a prayer
for the dead, it's not the central part of the service, that it doesn't
make sense for several people to say it in chaos, that the number of
kaddeishem is not to be increased on top of the seven daily ones (mostly
said by the chazzen) and so on. That they know all this, but decide to
fool the mourner for keirev purposes.
Lipman Phillip Minden
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From: .cp. <chips@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 20:39:42 -0700
Subject: Many saying Kaddish
> Some Ashkenazim years ago thought that they would 'improve' things, by
> allowing more than one person to say kaddish simultaneously, adopting
> a different practice in place of their own, and abandoned this ancient
> minhag. However, in hindsight, seeing the chaotic and disorderly way
> kaddish is recited by legions in many places today
Actually, there is a way to do this that is not disorderly. Have all the
people saying Kaddish stand together (behind the Chazan, by the bima, or
where-ever). That way they all hear each other and can stay in sync. I
have seen a couple of Shuls do it this way (does the Glen Ave Shul still
do it?)
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From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 13:11:18 -0400
Subject: Minhag Ashkenaz re Kaddish Recitation and Changing Minhogim
> Some Ashkenazim years ago thought that they would 'improve' things, by
> allowing more than one person to say kaddish simultaneously, adopting
> a different practice in place of their own, and abandoned this ancient
> minhag. ....
Sources please -- both as to who / when and motivation, re: "improve",
etc.
Thank you,
Carl
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From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:00:20 +0100
Subject: Re: Reciting Kaddish Quietly
> From: PM <phminden@...>
> Stephen Phillips wrote:
>> In regard to reciting Mourner's Kaddish quietly, I would like to bring
>> a quote from HaRav Yitzchak Tzvi Oshinsky, a Dayan in Yerushalayim and
>> author of a Sefer on Hilchos Aveilus:
>>
>> "It should be pointed out that also when saying Kaddish quietly while
>> other mourners say it out loud there is benefit, and the Amen which is
>> answered by the Tzibbur for the others' Kaddishim also applies to the
>> quiet Kaddish (Halichos Shlomo, Perek 18, Seif 31, in the name of
>> HaGaon HaRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l)."
> Unfortunately, I don't have the Halichos Shlomo at hand right now.
> Could someone who does quote or summarise this astonishing opinion?
> It's hard to understand how you answer to something that isn't said
> and heard, and what exactly the benefit is, out of comfort for the
> person who says kaddesh. (Not to be undervalued, to wit, but from my
> limited experience, I'd expect neither RSZA nor ylch"t Dayyen Oshinsky
> to write it just like that.)
I e-mailed Rav Oshinsky and this is his reply (my translation from the
Hebrew):
Although the congregation do not hear the Kaddish that is recited
quietly, nevertheless the mourner who is reciting the Kaddish is being
Mekadesh [sanctifying] Hashem's Name, at least as between him and
himself [beino l'vein atzmo] and between him and his Creator [beino
l'vein Kono]. This that he effects this Kiddush Hashem at precisely the
same time as the other mourners who are reciting [Kaddish] aloud causes
him to be joined in with their recitation and he is Mekadesh Hashem at
the same time, as a result of which [mimeila] the Amen relates to his
Kaddish as well.
Obviously, it is preferable to recite Kaddish out loud so that many
other men will hear it and they can become partners in the Kiddush
Hashem and in the answer [of Amen] to it.
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From: PM <phminden@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:48:14 +0200
Subject: Re: Reciting Kaddish Quietly
I'm afraid I'm still puzzled:
> Although the congregation do not hear the Kaddish that is recited
> quietly, nevertheless the mourner who is reciting the Kaddish is being
> Mekadesh [sanctifying] Hashem's Name, at least as between him and
> himself [beino l'vein atzmo] and between him and his Creator [beino
> l'vein Kono].
I thought that Kaddesh, as a dover shebbikdushe, requests a minyen to be
said, so the minyen can answer. If at a burial or in shul, there's no
minyen, would R' Oshinsky ask those present to say kaddesh quietly?!
> This that he effects this Kiddush Hashem at precisely the same time as
> the other mourners who are reciting [Kaddish] aloud causes him to be
> joined in with their recitation and he is Mekadesh Hashem at the same
> time, as a result of which [mimeila] the Amen relates to his Kaddish
> as well.
How so?
> Obviously, it is preferable to recite Kaddish out loud so that many
> other men will hear it and they can become partners in the Kiddush
> Hashem and in the answer [of Amen] to it.
Why, according to his reasoning, is this preferable, if their Omein
relates to his quiet kaddesh anyway?
ELPhM
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From: PM <phminden@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:21:14 +0200
Subject: Re: Religious intolerance (was Kaddish - adding verses)
Martin Stern wrote:
>> I wonder why it all stopped?
>
> This probably part of the general dislike of 'Yekkishe' minhagim among
> the Yeshiva world.
In general, this trend to give up one's parents' minhogem, in this case
German, might be explained by two reasons:
#1 - The German minneg used to be very strong (in other words, its
bearers are notoriously stubborn mules), but still, it's not aggressive,
and often enough not directed toward the outward. You need more Jewish
self-esteem to wear your tzitzes inside, or walk around in slightly
conservative, but otherwise plain clothes. This is true for other
minhogem as well.
#2 - I still haven't finished my thesis, and don't want to open my
publishing house before that. :-)
Lipman Phillip Minden
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From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 04:32:36 EDT
Subject: Yekke minhogim and difficulty of maintaining minority minhogim
> From: <md.stern@...> (Martin Stern)
> ....This probably part of the general dislike of 'Yekkishe' minhagim
> among the Yeshiva world. Our shul of German Jewish origin is at the
> present time being taken over by such a clique who are doing their
> utmost to erase its minhag which is leading to considerable
> ill-feeling. They seem unwilling to compromise on anything and are
> hell bent on driving out the original membership, having got rid of
> some 15% in about a year.
> Can anyone explain what motivates his sort of religious vandalism? Do
> we all have to be clones of some Yeshivishe model?
I am saddened to hear of Mr. Stern's situation and wish him hatzlocho. I
don't know the exact situation there, but I assume that it is not only
related to clashing minhogim, but also to demographic changes, where the
original founding group was reduced in size, hence weakened.
I don't think it is fair to solely point a finger at 'Yeshivishe' people
though in terms of such behavior. I don't think Yeshivas give lectures
telling their students to act that way. I suspect that some great Rosh
Yeshivas might actually even back Martin if they knew about the
situation. I have quite a few times seen others display similar
behavior, including Hassidim and Sepharadim violating Ashkenazic
minhogim in Ashkenazic congregations, so it's not just limited to one
group. Additionally, I would like to note, that, historically speaking,
this is not the first time such conflict has occurred as well. After the
expulsion from Spain, for one example, Spanish exiles came to
pre-existing communities in places like Turkey and such type of
conflicts erupted there too on occasion, between the Sephardim and the
locals. Perhaps it is connected to a deficit in the area of derech
eretz and sensitivity to others in some places today.
The situation also raises the question of the future of Yekke minhogim
in general. I strongly support Rav Binyomin Hamburger shlit"a of Machon
Moreshes Ashkenaz in Bnei Brak, who has been doing great work in this
area for years, in his efforts on their behalf. Perhaps Martin can get
some ideas from him. I believe Rav Hamburger feels that some Yekkes have
abandoned some of their ancestral minhogim because of lack of
appreciation of them, due to ignorance. Similarly, non-Yekkes have
sometimes not given them the respect they deserve, for that same reason.
To that end, he has published fascinating, very erudite studies showing
their historical roots and beauty, which were later published as the
seforim 'Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz'. Yekke minhogim have a special appeal
to me, as an Ashkenazic Jew, as certain of them are quite ancient and
closer to the original minhag Ashkenaz than other contemporary
variations from elsewhere. Raising consciousness and pride in minhogim
can help, although they are more long-term measures than instant quick
fixes.
By the way, I believe that this topic is not only important to Yekkes -
it is also important to other communities practicing minority minhogim.
Just as certain threatened/minority groups and languages get special
treatment from some governments, perhaps minority minhogim and
congregations that follow them should get special protection against
'hostile takeovers'. Just like there is legislation barring monopolies
and monoploistic practices in business, so too perhaps, should there be
a sensitivity in this area.
May we be zoche to sholom al Yisroel.
Mordechai
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End of Volume 52 Issue 33
