Volume 52 Number 34
                    Produced: Wed Jun 28  6:01:31 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airline Meals during the Nine Days
         [Sholom Parnes]
Bais Yaakov?
         [Joel Rich]
         [Nathan Lamm]
Jewish Libyan customs
         [Shoshana L. Boublil]
         [Michael Kopinsky]
Naming of Children getting Converted (3)
         [SBA, Nathan Lamm, Joel Rich]
Online: Aruch Hashulchan for Hilchos Tisha Be'av
         [Dovi Jacobs]
Staying up on Shavuot night - for women?
Tikkun Leil Shavuot
         [Akiva Miller]
Women's Learning
         [Aliza Berger]
Z'man Shcacharit
         [Mark Symons]


From: Sholom Parnes <merbe@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:27:44 +0200
Subject: Airline Meals during the Nine Days

I can't agree more with Zvi Stein that the intricacies of kashrut are
just to hard for the average airline employee to grasp.

Two examples:

1) happened over 50 years ago to my Great-Grandfather who was flying
from NYC to Montreal. There was some malfunction with the plane at
Kennedy (okay, Idewild) Airport and all the passengers were put up at a
local motel.  My great grandfather explained that he only ate kosher and
would be happy if they could find him a can of tuna or salmon to eat.
While trying to outdo themselves, the airline arranged for a lobster
dinner to be sent to his room.

2) While at kansas city airport we were waiting for our delayed
connecting flight to NYC .  The airline had messed up on the kosher
order from LA to Kansas City and we hadn't eaten in about 8 hours.  One
of the stewrds was extremely helpful and said he would go to the
commissary to see what was available for the kosher traveler. After
about 20 minutes he came back all smiles and announced, "I just spoke to
the chef.  Today's lunch is roast beef sandwiches. There is absolutely
no pork used, so you can eat it all !"

kol tuv


From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:26:19 -0400
Subject: Bais Yaakov?

>>> As for studying all night Shevuos, it is with much difficulty that
>>> rabbonim allow girls to study Torah in Beth Yaakov etc mainly because
>>> of Chazal's concerns of 'ke'ilu lomdo tiflus'.  But they obviously
>>> permitted it as a horo'as sha'ah and eis laasos laHashem.>
>>> SBA(original)
>>So now that we have an educated generation of Bais Yaakov women who can
>>transmit the mimetic mesorah as they did up to 100 years ago, which as
>>I understand it was the turning point that allowed the horaat shaah,
>>shouldn't the horrat shaah be reversed? JR (original)
>AIUI the horo'as shaah was mainly because girls began studying many other
>subjects anyway, thus teaching them Torah to counter the influence of
>some of those studies was found necessary.
>That situation is still around. 

See http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedolim/jo/tworld/schenirer.html (Jewish
Observer article) - seems like no psak/reason was given to allow this
earthshaking change other than bracha vhatzklacha from the Belzer

Joel Rich


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:19:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hashkama

Saul Newman writes:

> the shabbos hashkama minyan that i go to starts in reverse-- aim
> zmiros, mizmor shir, then brachos.  the tradition says that this was
> due to an earlier epoch when some came to say kaddish before going to
> work-- and thus caught all the kadishes within about 10 minutes.....

It's been pointed out on this list recently that these parts of tefillah
(or at least some of them) originally were at the beginning- we still
see this practice on Yom Kippur.


From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:38:29 +0200
Subject: Jewish Libyan customs

As there has been some interest, here is a website that summarizes many
Jewish Libyan customs. Many of them are shared with the Jews of Tunisia
and Jherba, but not Morrocco (which have different minhagim).


The website is in Hebrew. Rabbi Frijha Zu'aretz is a Gadol of the Lybian
Jewry community in Israel.

Shoshana L. Boublil


From: Michael Kopinsky <mkopinsky@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:29:46 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Re: Midrash

You are confusing a few different issues:

1) When can we take midrashim a) seriously, and b) literally?

The answer to this is a) always, and b) sometimes.  Tannaim and Amoraim
did not waste their time writing nonsense.  Every midrash is true.  The
question is are we understanding it correctly.  To use your example, the
Midrash says that Hashem wears Tefillin, and even discusses which
pesukim are in His tefillin.  If one understands this midrash to mean
that G-d actually wears black leather boxes with parchment inside, not
only is he a fool, but according to many opinions he is a heretic.  (Not
to mention, such an understanding could easily lead to a phobia of air
travel.) Of course, the Sages who wrote this midrash were neither fools
nor heretics.  So we have to ask what is the correct meaning of this

While I have not studied this particular Midrash in depth, I would
suggest that the midrash is comparing the deeper meaning of our
tefillin, and applying the same spiritual idea to G-d.  Our tefillin are
a symbolic thing we do that shows the connection between us and G-d.
The tefillin contains those pesukim that especially express this
connection.  The midrash is stating that kiv'yachol, just as we have a
connection to G-d, He also has a unique relationship with us.  While G-d
is entirely perfect, and does not need His creations in any way, we are
what grant him the status of a Ruler.  Without creations to rule over,
G-d cannot be a King.

2) Are midrashim actually the (or a) meaning of the pasuk? Or are they
pieces of wisdom presented in a particular format, such that the pasuk
is merely serving as an aid to present the information or lesson?

This is a question that I do not really have enough of an answer to to
present it publicly.

***Note that this discussion applies only to aggedata, or non-halachic
drashos.  When Chazal understand a pasuk to have certain halachic
meaning, they mean it literally.  The three-fold repetition of "You
should not cook a kid in its mother's milk" is actually there to teach
the three-fold prohition of eating, cooking, and deriving benefit from
meat and milk.

Michael Y. Kopinsky


From: SBA <areivim@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:55:50 -0400
Subject: Naming of Children getting Converted

> From: .cp. <>
> I don't have an issue with adults getting the name of 'ben Avraham' or
> 'bas Sarah' when they are converted.  But children? This contradicts the
> rule of confidentiality of the conversion process.

What "rule of confidentiality of the conversion process"?


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Naming of Children getting Converted

Is there a halakhic requirement to name "ben Avraham"?  I seem to once
recall seeing that any name, including that of the adoptive parent, may
be used. (There's certainly no requirement that the ger himself or
herself be named "Avraham" or "Sara".)

I do remember one ger in my shul who insisted on being called up as "Ben
Avraham Avinu" even though the gabbaim preferred the more anonymous "Ben
Avraham." It is a matter of pride to some people. (As it happened, he
converted as an adult, and it was well-known.)

Of course, if the adoptive parent is a Kohen or Levi, this won't
matter. (Better, in fact, that people know the truth and not think the
child is not called as a Kohen because he is a challal.)

In addition, I'm not sure how often this would be an issue for adopted
girls (unless they were sick, r'l), but there would be an issue of
geneivat da'at there, as they can't marry kohanim.

Nachum Lamm

From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:14:54 -0400
Subject: Naming of Children getting Converted

Not sure where this confidentiality rule is found but See Iggrot Moshe
Y"D 1:161 where he says ben avraham is preferable but allows(imvvvho as
a bdieved allowance)use of adoptive parents name.

Joel Rich


From: Dovi Jacobs <dovijacobs@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:55:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Online: Aruch Hashulchan for Hilchos Tisha Be'av

As we mark Rosh Chodesh Tamuz, I am pleased to announce that the Arukh
Hashulchon on the complete halachos of the three weeks and Tisha be'av
(simonim 549-561) is now available online in digital form.

These are typed digital versions of the simonim that may be copied,
pasted, printed, used or adapted freely for any purpose.

You can call up one siman at a time, or view all of Hilchos 9Av together
on a single page.

The online text is based on the printed book, but the abbreviations
(roshei tevos) have been expanded, full punctuation has been added, and
the text has been divided into smaller paragraphs.

This resource for learning halochoh may be found at the following link:


(Go to Hilchos 9Av in the index.)

Along with using it, feel free to improve it and add to it as well.



From: SBA <areivim@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:29:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Staying up on Shavuot night - for women?

From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...> 

> I would like to note that I don't understand why anyone would think
> that Torah study for girls was BeDi'Aved.

Probably mainly based on the Chazal: "Kol hamelamed bito Torah ke'ilu
lomdo tiflus'.

IIRC, the 3rd maamar in the sefer Vayoel Moshe - "Maamar Loshon
Hakodesh" includes a comprehensive birur halocho. [It was originally a
Teshuva to the late Rav Pinchos Hirschprung zt'l of Montreal.]

> People keep mixing up the chiyuv of Mitzvat Talmud Torah with the fact
> that in order to correctly KEEP Torah U'Mitzvot women HAVE To KNOW

100% correct. I don't think anyone argues that women must study all the
halochos that are noge'a to them. And there are heaps.. [Kashrus,
Shabbos, Niddah, and even Choshen Mishpat topics - if they are in
business, and of course mussar.]

But learning Mishna, Gemara, Kabala, and even Shulchan Aruch - rather
than piskei halochos, THAT is what many object to.

> Once upon a time, Tikkun Leil Shavu'ot was a minhag held by few. Most
> of those who religiously particapate nowadays would be forced to admit
> that their grandfathers never did.

When was that "once upon a time"??  AFAIK this minhag has been kept for
hundreds of years.

OTOH, as I have previously posted, to those for whom this minhag is new,
[and they are not interested in the Charedi lifestyle] let them say TLS
- gezunterheit..



From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:14:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Tikkun Leil Shavuot

I've been wanting to ask this for quite some time, but it was Menashe
Elyashiv's post which finally made me act. He wrote:

> I think that the Ben Ish Hai and Kaf Hahaim mean the same thing.  The
> base of studing all Shavout night is from Kabbala. It starts from the
> first counting of the Omer, thru the 7 sefirot, ending in the
> tikkun. Tikkun and not other studying. The closing being Kiddushat
> Keter in Musaf. So, because women do not count the omer as a Misvah
> Asee shhazman grama, kabbalisticaly, they do not have a reason to say
> Tikkun. It seems that the Yeshiva type of Leil Shavuot started after
> the Ari set up the Tikkun, not to say that the all night lectures are
> a very late addition.

I really don't follow that post at all. I've always understood that the
reason we stay up on Shavuos night is to insure that we are awake to
hear the Aseres HaDibros first thing in the morning, and thereby
disassociate ourselves from the error which our ancestors committed,
that of oversleeping rather than preparing themselves for that great

Many posters have been alluding to a different reason for staying up
that night, a reason which has something to do with Kabalah. Menashe
Elyashiv's post, quoted above, is the first one I've seen which attempts
to explain this alternate, Kabalistic reason. But I know so little of
Kabala that it is way over my head. Can anyone else try to explain it in
simpler terms? (For example, if there was some sort of very short Tikkun
recited on the first 49 nights, then I'd understand having a really long
one on the 50th. But is that the case?)

Akiva Miller


From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:37:56 +0200
Subject: Women's Learning

>From: Joel Rich

>So now that we have an educated generation of Bais Yaakov women who can
>transmit the mimetic mesorah as they did up to 100 years ago, which as
>I understand it was the turning point that allowed the horaat shaah,
>shouldn't the horrat shaah be reversed?

I believe I read somewhere that there is actually a sect of Hasidim here
in Israel that reduced the hours girls spend in school, for just this
reason. This way, they can spend more time doing home chores, thus
practicing for marriage.

Don't quote me on this, though. My memory could be faulty.

Aliza Berger-Cooper, PhD
English Editing: www.editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: www.statistics-help.com


From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:26:39 +1000
Subject: Z'man Shcacharit

Is there an opinion that allows shacharit till chatzot( noon)?

Mark Symons


End of Volume 52 Issue 34