Volume 52 Number 55
                    Produced: Tue Jul 18 20:21:24 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chatan and Kalah in week prior to Wedding
         [Ari Zivotofsky]
         [Joel Rich]
Protocols in Marriages (8)
         [Shoshana L. Boublil, <FriedmanJ@...>, Rabbi Wise, Binyomin
Segal, Percy Mett, Anonymous2, Perry Zamek, David Neuman]
Two Days of Yom Kippur
         [Daniel Wells]


From: Ari Zivotofsky <zivotoa@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:23:17 +0300
Subject: Re: Chatan and Kalah in week prior to Wedding




From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:26:06 -0400
Subject: Kadish

We recently discussed the issue of a daughter saying kaddish and I
posited that part of the issue might have involved the question of
whether the R' Akiva story which involved a son and a father was
specific to a son/father relationship or a parent/child (which seemed
somewhat more likely since a son says kaddish for a mother as well). I
came across the following from the Yeshivat Har Etzion VBM which might
have some philosophical bearing on the issue.

 THE WEEKLY MITZVA   By Rav Binyamin Tabory 


It is interesting to note that the Torah never explicitly states that a
son inherits.  The fact that a daughter inherits when there are no sons
naturally implies that the son is the primary heir.  This led the Gaon
of Rogatschov, Rav Yosef Rozen, and others, to propose a theory that a
son is not merely an heir.  He actually fills his father's shoes and
takes over in his stead.  In his characteristic, succinct style, Rav
Rozen cites many sources to prove his point (see She'elot U-teshuvot
Tzofnat Pa'aneach 313).  One of his proofs comes from the laws
concerning the eved ivri (Jewish servant).  The Gemara (Kidushin 17b)
explains that if the owner dies, ownership over the eved is not
transferred to his heirs.  If, however, the owner leaves behind a son,
the eved continues to work as the son's servant.  This clearly
demonstrates a fundamental distinction between a son and other heirs,
namely, that the son somehow assumes his father's status.  <SNIP>

Joel Rich 


From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:07:56 +0200
Subject: Re: Protocols in Marriages

> From: Anonymous
> Recently a Rav who has serviced a community for over 25 years attended a
> wedding in his city . The chatunah took place in his city but not in his
> shul facility. The Rav who is close to the family was not asked to
> participate at all , because the Kallah's family was informed that only
> the Chatan decides which rebbe and rabbis were to be the msader kdushin,
> koreh ktuva or to address the couple.. The absence of the shtat rav at
> the chupah was obvious and caused much unrest. What is the proper
> procedure?

My husband is an acting Mesader Kedushin in Israel.  He is also the
rabbi of a community.

The true answer to this question of "who decides what?" is the same as
all wedding questions: while many things are determined by the Chatan's
side, it is mentschlichkeit to make provisions for the Kallah's side as

As for the practice:

--There are rabbis who hate the bickering around the berachot and
  ketuva, and make it a condition that they read and say EVERYTHING.
  This way, only the Mesader Kedushin is involved, and sometimes it's a

--There are families that split things down the middle - the mesader
  Kedushin says one beracha, 3 to the Chatan's side, 3 to the Kallah's
  side and an additional agreed upon respected rabbi/community leader
  reads the Ketuba.

BTW, some rabbis do not allow anyone else to read the ketuba to prevent

--And then there are families who insist on all "their" rights.  Just
  check who gets to name the children...

In this specific case, the kallah's father should have discussed the
issue with the Chatan in advance to prevent the resulting insult.

BTW, in creative situations, you "give an honor" to someone whose job it
becomes to invite the people to the Chuppa; 4 friends of the Chatan can
hold the canopy (you "call" them to stand there, the canopy usually
holds itself <g>). Another friend can be honored with holding the
wine. You can be as inventive as you like.

What people should know is that there will always be someone who is
"insulted".  A 2nd cousin who believes they should have gotten the
beracha and not the Kallah's rabbi; An uncle who is passed over by
accident. What do you do when the Chatan has a dozen senior rabbis in
his family (all coming "special" for the wedding) and the Kallah has
another dozen?  I sometimes think that perhaps that's the reason for the
2nd Sheva Berachot at the Seudat Mitzvah -- you can give the bentching
and berachot to all those important people who couldn't be honored under
the Chuppa. Just make sure to notify them in time -- so they don't leave

Shoshana L. Boublil

From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:34:34 EDT
Subject: Re: Protocols in Marriages

      Recently a Rav who has serviced a community for over 25 years
      attended a wedding in his city . The chatunah took place in his
      city but not in his shul facility. The Rav who is close to the
      family was not asked to participate at all , because the Kallah's
      family was informed that only the Chatan decides which rebbe and
      rabbis were to be the msader kdushin, koreh ktuva or to address
      the couple.. The absence of the shtat rav at the chupah was
      obvious and caused much unrest. What is the proper procedure?

 the kallah has the right to choose people for kebudim as much as the
khosen does, esp. since her PARENTS ARE PAYING FOR EVERYTHING.....and
particularly if her mishpacha has real yichus and his doesn't!  So tell
me, does he get to choose the tablecloths and the color scheme too? how
about the wedding gown and the sheitel?

From: <Meirhwise@...> (Rabbi Wise)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:54:54 EDT
Subject: Re: Protocols in Marriages

In response to anonymous re: procedure at weddings.

The custom nowadays seems to be that the Rosh Yeshiva of the chatan is
mesader chuppa vekiddushin. Although I am a Rabbi, who after marrying
countless couples would have enjoyed doing so for my own children, I
nevetheless gave way to Rav Gedaliah Finkel one of the Roshei Yeshivot
of Mir, Jerusalem at my elder son's wedding.

Having said that, there are other honours to be granted and it is a
serious lack of derech eretz to ignore the city or synagogue rabbi
whatever the facility used.

Rabbi Wise, London

From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:53:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Protocols in Marriages

There is so much wrong here, it is hard to know where to start. Perhaps
simply a counter example to show that it is not the whole world that is
going crazy. I was at a chatuna recently where I am friendly with both
sides of the family. I had a pretty good idea who either side would ask
to be mesader. I was only slightly surprised when the Kallah's family
rav, the morah d'asrah of the town, was mesader.

Turns out the chasan's family asked a different rav, the son's Rosh
Yeshiva, and he told that that it would be inappropriate for him to be
mesader in that town. The rav there should do it. So the chasan's choice
for mesader was given a different kavod.

I'll leave it to other - calmer - voices to articulate in more detail
what else is wrong with this story, but if the story is true as is I
would be concerned that people are being lied to and manipulated. Not a
good way to start a marriage.

binyomin segal
To the WORLD, YOU may be ONE person; but to ONE person, YOU may be the WORLD

From: Percy Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:35:26 +0100
Subject: Re: Protocols in Marriages

The widespread custom certainly used to be (and, in England, still is)
that the kalo's family
(a) pays for the wedding
(b) appoints the mesader kidushin

In Israel this is no longer the case. However, it seems to me that if
the kalo's fanily is paying for the wedding, the choson has no right to
insist in who should be mesader kidushin

Having said that, it is worth adding that ultimately a wedding involves
two parties (at least! sometimes the chosn or kalo is not in tune
with his/her parents and there are more than two parties) who have an
interest in the arrangements, and it is best for them to come to an
amicable agreement on matters rather than **insisting** how things
should be done.


From: Anonymous2
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:13:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Protocols in Marriages

     If the community in question has only one rav, it is prohibited as
hasagat gvul for another rav to be msader kiddushin without obtaining
permission from the rav of the city, since payment for such services is
considered part of the rav's remuneration, unless otherwise stipulated
when he was hired.

     Siddur kiddushin means running the chatunah.  This includes writing
the ktuba and seeing to it that everything is done kdat ukdin.* As for
saying the birchot eirusin (what is commonly, but improperly, referred
to as being msader kiddushin), that is indeed the chatan's obligation or
that of the one he designates (it is only not to embarrass one who does
not know the bracha that we now insist that the chatan not say it
himself).  However, all the other kibbudim are no more the chatan's than
the kallah's.

     The chatan is required to ask the rav for mchila for the public
insult, and if his choice for msader kiddushin was aware of the
situation, he too must ask the rav for mchila.

*It is told of Rav Soloveitchik that when Rav Moshe Feinstein was
present at a wedding, RYBS would defer to RMF for the brachot.  When one
of his students protested that he wanted his rebbe to be msader
kiddushin, RYBS responded, "I was. I took care of all the details.  I
was only mchabed RMF to say the birchot eirusin."

From: Perry Zamek <perryza@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:45:04 +0200
Subject: Re: Protocols in Marriages

My first thought is: What chutzpah! And such a lack of derech eretz on
the part of the chatan, his family *and* his rebbeim.

I feel sorry for the kallah's family - I bet they were "informed" that
they would have to pay, as well.

I seem to recall being told, when I was growing up, that the kallah gets
to pick the mesader kiddushin. Certainly it should be no less than a
shared decision. After all, the couple are about to share their lives
(if this is not the case, then I am very afraid for the kallah).

Evidently, someone hasn't learned the fifth volume of Shulchan Arukh
(you know, the one about common sense).

Perry Zamek

From: David Neuman <daveselectric@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:37:01 -0400
Subject: Protocols in Marriages

B"H we married off four sons.  The only protocol would be mentshleckeit.
Generally the kibud of sidur kidushin belongs to the choson.  The other
kibudim are split between the two sides. There are enough kibudim to go
around.  At my wedding, the sidur kidushin was chosen by my father in

Regardless of protocol, it is most inappropriate to slight anyone or to
be disrespectful to any Rav.

duvid neuman
Dave's Electrical Service, LTD.
216-371-1580    fax  216-371-2893


From: Daniel Wells <wells@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:01:31 +0300
Subject: Two Days of Yom Kippur

> The dateline problem is not a suffik in the date of Yom Kippur

Sure it is a problem since:

a. there a several different opinions as to where the  halachic dateline
is located.
b. there is a 'gray' area between any halachic dateline and the civil
dateline where at any particular time, the Jewish date and thus
the Jewish day of week is out of tandem with the civil calendar in force
at those locations.
c. most Jewish communities in those 'gray' areas usually regulate there
lives according to the civil equivalent and thus in matters d'oraitha
can find themselves in a difficult situation such as having to keep 2
days Shabbat or Yom Kippur so as to be certain they do not transgress by
not knowing the exact location of the halachic dateline which defines the
Jewish date. 

> but rather a suffik in the psak, a problem in asking a rabbi.

I presume most self respecting rabbis will give advice, but a psak can
only be given if it is clear to him that all other possibilities are
absolutely invalid.



End of Volume 52 Issue 55