Volume 52 Number 56
                    Produced: Wed Jul 19  9:11:37 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aveil Baal Tefilah Yom Kippur Mincha
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Bostoner Minhag
         [Goldfinger, Andy]
Extreme (?) View on Intermarriage
         [Joel Rich]
Fast start?
         [Joel Rich]
Interesting Halachic Question
         [Stephen Phillips]
Letters of the Alef-beys
         [Lipman Phillip Minden]
Midrash Aggadata
         [Michael Kopinsky]
Molad of Tishrei
         [Heshy Summer]
More on multiple minhagim
         [Carl Singer]
Natural Disasters
         [Joel Rich]
nun bau dain tempel shire
         [Lipman Phillip Minden]
         [Andy Goldfinger]
Sitting shivah for children who intermarry
why is Yom Kippur not a two day fast?
Yom Kippur (2)
         [Immanuel Burton, Josh]


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:17:24 +0300
Subject: Re: Aveil Baal Tefilah Yom Kippur Mincha

Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...> stated:

>> Searching for heter for  a 12 month avel who has been davening Yom
>> Kippur Mincha for a number of years to do so during his avelus. Need
>> sources.

> Who says there is an issur?  See Greenwald, Kol Bo al Aveilut p. 288,
> quoting Noda Beyehuda as holding that the practice of forbidding
> aveilim from acting as shelichei tzibur from Rosh Chodesh Elul to Yom
> Kippur is a "minhag ta'ut", and "even on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur,
> there is no issur, merely a minhag".  See also p. 289, citing Binyan
> Olam as holding that even on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, "im ein
> acheir ragil kamohu .  . . mutar lo lehitpaleil" (if there is nobody
> as used to doing it as he, it is permissible for him to lead the
> prayers).

Over a decade ago, my rav (in my presence) asked Rav Zilberstein about
just such a case, regarding a shul member who ordinarily davened one day
shaharit and two days musaf.  Rav Zilberstein replied that the shul
should engage a hazzan for pay this year.  He maintained that this is
even a better way of having the hazzan be the shali'ah of the
congregation, when he is paid for doing so.

And we acted accordingly.  The following year the davening took place
with the traditional ba`alei tefila.

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: Goldfinger, Andy <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:33:41 -0400
Subject: Bostoner Minhag

Perts Mett writes:

> The wearing of a gold kaftan on Yom Kippur is a bit unusual.
> Yerushalmi minhog is to wear gold on Shabbos and Sholosh Regolim. On
> Yomim Noroim and Hoshano Rabo they wear a white kaftan (not a kitl).

My memory might be playing tricks on me.  I definitely remember the
Bostoner Rebbe wearing a gold "zhilber" on Rosh HaShana, along with a
very wide gartel that I always suspected was made from his father's
tallis (just my speculation).  Perhaps I have confused this with Yom

Are there any readers out there who have been to Bostoner dovening on
the yomim naaraim who can help us?

-- Andy Goldfinger


From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:40:10 -0400
Subject: Extreme (?) View on Intermarriage

>> I find myself wondering in what century the second sentence was written.
>> Do you really believe this?  Are you not counting as "Judaism" or "Jews"
>> all of the many, many congregations with intermarried families?
>No.  Until recently (and often even these days) parents sit shiva after a
>child that married out RL.

See www.scjfaq.org/faq/10-12.html on the source of this seeming minhag.

Quote-This "legend" arose because, until recently, those who had
interfaith marriages often abandoned Judaism, becoming apostate
Jews. The custom of sitting shiva for apostates seems to be based on a
misunderstanding of a passage in the Or Zarua (13th cent), which stated
that Rabbenu Gershom (11th cent) sat shiva for his son, who had become a
Christian. My understanding is that Rabbenu Gershom sat shiva when his
son died, despite the fact that he had apostasized, not when the son
became a Christian. The halakhic discussion of this point, which starts
in the Or Zarua, goes back and forth on whether or not we follow that
practice, but, there is no suggestion that we should sit shiva when
someone leaves Judaism.

Joel Rich


From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:23:48 -0400
Subject: Fast start?

> Last night, the night of Shiva Asar BeTammuz, we flew out from Prague at
> 1 a.m. and landed in Israel at about 5:30 a.m., a 3.5 hour flight as
> Israeli time is an hour ahead of Czech time.
> Now, the time until which one may eat before dawn is about 2:30 a.m. in
> Prague and about 4:20 a.m. in Israel.
> The question then, is until what time may one eat while on the plane?
> Shmuel Himelstein

See http://www.ou.org/pdf/ja/5766/summer66/82_84.pdf


From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:42:58 +0100
Subject: Re: Interesting Halachic Question

> From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
> I wonder if anyone has been confronted with a similar situation and
> received a halachic ruling.

> Last night, the night of Shiva Asar BeTammuz, we flew out from Prague at
> 1 a.m. and landed in Israel at about 5:30 a.m., a 3.5 hour flight as
> Israeli time is an hour ahead of Czech time.

> Now, the time until which one may eat before dawn is about 2:30 a.m. in
> Prague and about 4:20 a.m. in Israel.

> The question then, is until what time may one eat while on the plane?

Try the Chai Air Travel Tables at http://www.zemanim.org/

Stephen Phillips


From: Lipman Phillip Minden <phminden@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:38:09 +0200
Subject: Re: Letters of the Alef-beys

Perets Mett wrote:
> [I don't believe anyone in the world says Taf]

Routine pronunciation of thousands of students of theology in Germany
and the Netherlands, 'taf' is what I'd naively expect from Yekkes,
unless hypercorrecting: final devoicing, and keeping of the
pre-Ashkenazic a sound in a closed syllable, like in 'prat' and
'klal'. Nevertheless, I'm used to saying 'tof', not 'taf', and I don't
remember ever hearing it differently either.

Lipman Phillip Minden


From: Michael Kopinsky <mkopinsky@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:49:19 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Re: Midrash Aggadata

> As I am sure most people on this list know (but am surprised no one
> has quoted yet) this is a paraphrase of what the Rambam's son wrote in
> his Introdcution to the Ein Yaakov (collection of Talmudic aggadata),
> which is available in English.

Slight Correction: The son of the Rambam did not write an introduction
to Ein Yaakov.  The Ein Yaakov was only put together two or three
hundred years later.  Rather, Rav Avraham ben HaRambam has a piece on
Aggadata which is often printed in the front of the Ein Yaakov.

Michael Y. Kopinsky


From: Heshy Summer <hhandls@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:12:53 +0200
Subject: Molad of Tishrei

>In September of 2002 the Molad of Tishrei happened on Shabbat 12 hours
>and 982 helekim, which is the equivalent of Sat, 7 Sep, 2002 6:54
>AM. The astronomical conjunction was Sat, 7 Sep, 2002 5:29 AM.  Since
>Rosh HaShanah began Friday night it seemed strange that Rosh HaShanah
>would begin two days before there was any possibility of witnesses
>sighting the New Moon.  Indeed the Moslems started their New Month of
>Rajab on Sunday Night.

>I was interested in knowing just how often such an anomaly occurred so I
>related Molads of Tishrei from 101 CE through 2100 with the astronomical

>I was surprised to learn that the date calculated for the Rosh HaShanah
>when the dehiyot are excluded is 75% of the time exactly as it was in
>2002, two days before any possibility of witnesses. In fact the Hebrew
>Calendar calculation always produces such a Rosh HaShanah at least one
>day before it would have been possible for witnesses to testify to it.

Are you comparing the average molad or the actual molad?  The time
between molads of 29 days 12 hours and 793 chalakim is an average time
between molads.  Therefore, may occur before or after the actual molad.

>From a statistical standpoint, one would think that earliest possible
sighting should occur 50% of the time before the announced molad and 50%
after.  It is indeed curious that your data shows 75% before.

Also, I believe the convention is to use Jerusalem time to state the
molad without adjustment for DST (it was not clear what you used in your
research).  This may also skew results.

Kol Tuv, 


From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:29:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: More on multiple minhagim

>> I guess this goes back to a fundamental question -- that of
>> objective.  Does one enter a situation and strive to make it work --
>> or strive to derail it.

> Isn't this is rather vague and subjective?  How YOU want to make it work
> may be different from how I want to make it work.

 Relevant is how the kehila as a group wants to make it work, 'you' and
'I' have little meaning when there is a 'we' to worry about.

> Regarding an established synagogue with no established minhag, I still
> wonder whether there is a halakhic justification.

This Synagogue HAS an established minhag - to follow the shaliach
tizbor's hometown minhag.  That is very different than no minhag at all.

Speculating -- I imagine if a Yeminite moved into this community the
altruism of this group might crumble and they might say that the
Yeminite minhagim were out of bounds for this particular kehila.  Then
again, the Yeminite would probably feel the same.

Again, re: bandwidth - the bandwidth is defined by the members of that
kahila - this isn't an ad hoc minyan in, say, an airport - these are
neighbors who have chosen to daven in this particular shul with this
particular way of doing things.



From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:33:56 -0400
Subject: Natural Disasters

> On how to view natural disasters I highly recommend the book "Out of the
> Whirlwind" based on lectures of Rav Soloveitchik.  While I cannot
> summarize an entire book in a few lines one of the points that he
> strongly stresses that one should not ask the question of why did G-d do
> this as we cannot understand G-d's logic. Rather we should ask what does
> this disaster teach me.
> Eli Turkel

I would summarize as don't ask why (although if you read the recently
released "The Lord is righteous in all his ways" from Rav Soloveitchik's
talks you will see on Tisha Bav until mincha we have special
dispensation to ask why) but ask what; what does HKB"H(halacha) want me
to do now?

Given the current situation, we all need to ask ourselves this question.
Joel Rich


From: Lipman Phillip Minden <phminden@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:13:15 +0200
Subject: Re: nun bau dain tempel shire

SBA wrote:
> Also a minhag with many Hungarian Oberlender.
> AFAIK the German version is mentioned in (or compiled by?) the Shelah.

As I've already said here and there, it's older; he merely mentions
it. (I think the Yated Ne'eman claimed the Shlo invented it.)

> Can a German speaker confirm that 'shierer' (the Yiddish translated
> Hagados spell 'shirah' - as in 'Shirah chadosho') - indeed means
> 'quick'?

A random speaker of German wouldn't help much, as in today's German
'schier' has a different meaning (see http://tinyurl.com/eqvq4 for
English equivalents) and in fact, a different origin (see
http://tinyurl.com/lsfod for that). Nevertheless, in older German and
West Yiddish, it does indeed mean "quick" as well. 'Shire' with an -e at
the end is probably simply a variant of 'shir' - wouldn't be the only
word like that. MLowerG sources have both 'schir' and 'schire'/'schere',
MHG 'schier'. The writing with a Hei is an incorrect Hebraisation.

Lipman Phillip Minden


From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:27:45 -0400
Subject: RE: PETA


>>Many people are not aware of this:
>>The term "vegetarian" is actually an American Indian word.
>>It means:"poor hunter."
>I think it comes from the latin "vegetus."

[Note: Jokes often do not transfer well over these email lists. Some
longer time members may remember the great pesach doorknob discussion. I
would also note that I just saw a tee shirt for sale with the exact text
of the above. Mod.]


From: <shaviv@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:39:45 -0400
Subject: Sitting shivah for children who intermarry

'SBA' (MLJ 51:52) writes: "Until recently (and often even these days)
parents sit shiva after a child that married out RL."

Has any member of this list ever seen - personally, not 'heard of', or
'knew about', but personally seen and visited - parents sitting shiva
for a child who married out - either 'until recently', or "often these


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 23:53:12 +1000
Subject: why is Yom Kippur not a two day fast?

Richard Fiedler wrote:
> Out side of Israel why is Yom Kippur not a two day fast?

Excellent concise piece about this topic.
It seems that there were places and times when some did fast 2 days.


From: Immanuel Burton <iburton@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:39:27 +0100
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur

In all the discussion about not keeping Yom Kippur for 2 days nowadays
while we observe a fixed calendar despite keeping two days for other
Festivals, does anyone know what people outside Israel do for Yom Kippur
in the times of the Sanhedrin, when there is a genuine doubt as to when
Yom Kippur is?

Immanuel Burton.

From: <Shuanoach@...> (Josh)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:40:57 EDT
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur

There were in fact rabbis who kept a 2-day yom kippur fast. (some got ill
as a result though.) It is mentioned in the yerushalmi and german
rishonim discuss the practice.



End of Volume 52 Issue 56