Volume 52 Number 59
                    Produced: Thu Jul 20 11:01:42 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

"Aseh Lecha Rav" (2)
         [Ira L. Jacobson, David Curwin]
"Aseh Lecha Rav" -- "Make," not "Get" or "Take" One
         [Yeshaya Halevi]
"Aseh Lecha Rav" and my dentist
         [Andy Goldfinger]
         [Michael Poppers]
Do you have a VaygTub
         [Carl Singer]
Modern Orthodoxy
         [Carl Singer]
Molad of Tishrei
         [Richard Fiedler]
When to start a fast while on a plane
         [Mike Gerver]
Yom Kippur (2)
         [Ben Katz, Perets Mett]
Zemanin on a Plane
         [Shimon Lebowitz]


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:26:38 +0300
Subject: Re: "Aseh Lecha Rav"

David Curwin <tobyndave@...> stated:

      I have heard that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach held that "Aseh Lecha
      Rav" is good advice, but not a halacha, and in our days it is
      preferable to consult with a posek based on their field of

Do you suppose this advice means that 10 million Jews should come with
10 million chickens to ask Poseq Hador whether each chicken is kosher?

IRA L. JACOBSON         

From: David Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:40:27 +0300
Subject: RE: "Aseh Lecha Rav"

From: Ira L. Jacobson [mailto:<laser@...>]:
> Do you suppose this advice means that 10 million Jews should come with 10
> million chickens to ask Poseq Hador whether each chicken is kosher?

That's not how I understood it. Not only the "posek hador" is considered
an expert in chickens. But I suppose that if there are two Rabbanim, one
more an expert in chickens than the other, than it is preferable to go
to the expert. And while chickens might be a somewhat banal example, I
can certainly see the significance to this approach when it comes to
more complicated halachic issue that not every rabbi is expected to

David Curwin
Balashon - Hebrew Language Detective


From: <c.halevi@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:07:20 +0000
Subject: "Aseh Lecha Rav" -- "Make," not "Get" or "Take" One

Shalom to Klal Yisrael:

I have always found it interesting that the phrase is "Aseh Lecha Rav,"
which literally means "Make for yourself a rav (rabbi/master). It
doesn't say "Get yourself a rav" or "Take" one.  I've heard conflicting
explanations about this. Anyone care to discuss it?

Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi


From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 07:59:44 -0400
Subject: "Aseh Lecha Rav" and my dentist

David Curwin writes:

> I have heard that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach held that "Aseh Lecha
> Rav" is good advice, but not a halacha, and in our days it is
> preferable to consult with a posek based on their field of expertise.

The dental office I use recently added a new dentist. During our first
appointment, she was puzzled by something she saw and told me she wanted
to get one of the other dentists to look at it since he had more
experience with this.  I was very impressed, especially that she openly
stated, in my presence, that she needed help.  I feel that I can really
trust her and would not hesitate to go to her in the future.

I have a Rav that I trust, and part of my trust comes from his doing
similar things.  There have been occasions one which I asked him a
question and he said he was not sure of the answer.  On these occasions
he often said "I want to consult with Rav (Plony) about it."  This
impresses me, since he seems to know what he does not know.  Now --
could I go and consult expert poskim on my own?  Certainly, if I knew
who to pick.  On these occasions, however, I choose to rely on my Rav's
knowledge and experience in picking the expert, something I cannot do.

-- Andy Goldfinger


From: <MPoppers@...> (Michael Poppers)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 21:47:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Dalet

In M-J V52#53, David Curwin wrote:
> And I wrote about the letter in general here:
> http://balashon.blogspot.com/2006/06/dalet.html 

Thanks, David, that was an enjoyable post (even though I couldn't read
certain characters on my pager). Prof. Matisyahu Clark, in his
"Etymological Dict. of Biblical Hebrew," considers dalet-lamed-lamed
(impoverish) and dalet-lamed-haih (raise) as gradational variants, with
delet (swinging door) listed under the latter root and tav-lamed-haih
(hang) related to that latter root.

One crazy thought which occurs to me: if Dalet's shape is supposed to
resemble a door, doesn't Bais (which is supposed to resemble a house)
then actually represent a door (which is utilizing a ceiling in order to
hang/swing) with a floor? Hmmmmm....

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager


From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 11:54:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Do you have a VaygTub

>     The issue is not the specialization or proffessionalization of
> halocha, rather it is that people in this day and age are under so
> much stress and pressure that they are looking for all the short cuts
> possible. Of course our grandmothers knew how to salt & soak, they
> also knew how to check vegetables for insects.

OK - -an scientifically indefensible straw poll --

(1) How many of you know what a VaygTub is? 
(2) How many of you have a VaygTub in your home?
(3) How many of youhave ever soaked and salted meat (for kashuring?)



From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 12:01:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Modern Orthodoxy

I hate labels -- they itch the back of my neck -- and those on my shirt
collar bother me, too.

I really don't know what Modern Orthodoxy is -- is a Jew who meets all 3
qualifications for being an ayd at a wedding, can learn a blat gemorah
with ease and depth, but has a secular degree, works in the secular
world and wears a tan suit "MO", while someone who wears black suit and
black hat with their tzistsis neatly two inches below the edge of their
jacket "right wing" regardless of their scholarship or midos?

I do know that the middle ground (if that's how some would like to label
what they call Modern Orthodoxy) is (a) hard to define and (b) hard to
defend.  Extremism is easy to do.

For the Yiddish speakers on the list  -- A gallach geyt ungetun a
schvartzeh menarkeh. 
Email me for a translation if, so inclined.



From: Richard Fiedler <richardfiedler@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:32:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Molad of Tishrei

Terminology is important here. 

My Molad is the developed from the calculation as is documented on Remy
Landau's site Hebrew Calendar Science and Myths
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1584/. You should be able to check it
against other calculations with the only discrepancy as to when the day
starts, a factor of 6 hours. Molad calculations are all based on the
average Molad since until perhaps the Ralbag there was no idea how to
predict the variance in time between each lunar month.

No my data is not strange when you realize that a sighting occurs only
during the first hour of the day yet if the calculation is produces a
time let us say of 1:00 AM or or 4:00 PM in each case it is the same as
if it was at 6:00 PM the previous day, the very start of the halachic

I adjusted the Conjuction time by 2.333 hours for the difference between
Greenwich and Jerusalem.

I have available a PDF of my actual calculations for the 100 years
beginning with Hebrew Year 3862 and the 100 years beginning with Hebrew
Year 5762.

These are not complicated calculations for non-mathematical people to
understand but the obvious conclusions are a bit mind-boggeling.

That being that for Israeli's who observe one day hag they never observe
this hag on a day which could have been determined by witnesses on Rosh
Chodesh. And for those leaving in Golus second day yom tov appears to be
a good idea for 25% of the time because only then are you observing hag
as could have been established by witnessed testimony.

Of course I believe that what this really proves is that second day yom
tov in Golus is purely a Kanas and has no relation to any suffic.


From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:46:27 EDT
Subject: When to start a fast while on a plane

Shmuel Himelstein asks, in v52n53,

> Now, the time until which one may eat before dawn is about 2:30
> a.m. in Prague and about 4:20 a.m. in Israel.  The question then, is
> until what time may one eat while on the plane?

I would assume that you can eat until the sun is the same distance below
the horizon, on the plane, as it is below the horizon at 2:30 am in
Prague and 4:20 am in Israel. Or perhaps, until the sun is the same
distance below the horizon, as seen from the ground directly below the
plane. If the sun is not the same distance below the horizon at 2:30 am
in Prague and 4:20 am in Israel on that day, then apparently there are
different minhagim in Prague and Israel as to when you have to start
fasting. In that case, I imagine, the time when you have to start
fasting on the plane would depend on whether you are Israeli or Czech.

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:21:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur

>From: <chips@...>
>         Because it would make life way too difficult. The only places
>where 2 days of Yom Kippur are kept in some sort of fashion are some
>places located 90-180 degrees east of Yerushalyim due to the doubt of
>where the halachic date line is.

         To go off on a slight tangent (after all that is what
discussion groups are for :-)) I have always been bothered by this
concept of a "halachic date line" which appears to me to be a complete
retrojection.  I have read articles about it, and still don't see the
basis of it.  The fact of the matter is that it wasn't known till
relatively modern times that the further North or South you go that the
days change in length (I believe the Vilna Gaon was the first Jewish
rabbinic authority to note this phenomenon), and I don't believe it was
much appreciated until the advent of standard time after the civil war
that a date line was necessary.  I would love to be corrected if I am

Kol tuv.
Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
e-mail: <bkatz@...>

From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 22:01:26 +0100
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur

Rabbi Goldstein wrote:

> It is related that when Mir was in Shanghai, the Chazon Ish zt'l gave
> them the following advice:
> To observe one day as Yom Kippur with the fasting and inuuyim; the
> second day as shabbat with shvut melacha but no fasting since it is
> cannot abide fasting for two days straight.

There must be some mistake here.
No one, including the Chazon Ish, considers the day in Shanghai to be  
a sofek.

The issue arose when the Mirer Yeshiva was in Kobe, Japan before moving
to Shanghai. The Chazon Ish rules that Japan is on the other isde of the



From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:44:16 +0200
Subject: Re: Zemanin on a Plane

> The part about "point on the earth" is important to stress.  That
> means that just because you can see the sun from the plane does not
> necessarily mean it is "daytime" for you.  If the sun appears to be
> rising from the plane, then directly below you, it is dark.  You must
> wait sufficient time after that for the sun to be visible from the
> earth below in order to do "daytime mitzvos".

Are you sure of this, and are there sources available?  I seem to
remember MANY years ago davening in a plane at approximately "vatikin"
time (sunrise) - as seen from the plane, with a minyan.

Were we really a "terach" (too early) minyan?



End of Volume 52 Issue 59