Volume 52 Number 58
                    Produced: Thu Jul 20 10:38:12 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Alert for Jewish Schools and Camps Visiting Museums
         [Michael Rogovin]
Kohein flying in a plane over graves
         [Aryeh Gielchinsky]
Nusah Questions
         [Baruch J. Schwartz]
Tunes and personalities
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Vegetarianism/Veganism and R. Moshe
Yisro-kel (3)
         [Feldhamer, Stuart, Rose Landowne, Tzvi Stein]


From: Michael Rogovin <rogovin@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:24:18 -0400
Subject: Alert for Jewish Schools and Camps Visiting Museums

Science museums are popular destinations for observant Jews at all
times, and especially during the 3 weeks/9days period when other venues
may not be appropriate for outings. Schools and camps also visit this
great hands-on interactive science center. However, many museums contain
exhibits which present problems for cohanim who may inadvertently expose
themselves to tumah. Recent exhibits at museums (mostly science but also
art museums) had plasticized human bodies.  Cohanim, both above and
below bar mitzvah age, should be cautioned about entering any of these
museums (although the remains are highly unlikely to be Jewish, many are
strict about this, even with non-jewish bodies or body parts). Note that
some of these exhibits may also be disturbing for other children (and
adults too) for aesthetic or ethical reasons. "Bodies" and "BodyWorlds"
are exhibits that are touring museums worldwide and are essentially
displays of preserved corpses. Cohanim (and other sensitive types)

By the way, the NY Hall of Science informs me that (contrary to
information I had been given), there are no human remains in any display
in the museum. It is a great place for families interested in science
and technology and fun, and has always attracted a frum crowd,
particularly during sfira and the 3 weeks.

Michael Rogovin


From: Aryeh Gielchinsky <agielchinsky@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 00:46:36 -0500
Subject: Kohein flying in a plane over graves

Another similar (and interesting) question is, can a cohen fly in a
plane if he knows the plane might/will fly over graves. Rav Herschel
Schachter has a piece on this, does anyone know if anyone else wrote
about this topic?


From: Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:01:29 +0200
Subject: Nusah Questions

With regard to the hatzi kaddish before the amida on Friday night,
Naftali Olivestone <naftali@...> asks why the nusah suddenly
shifts at that point. He even confesses that he had formerly prided
himself on having made the special effort to return to the Maariv nusah
after veshamru, despite the difficulty involved when veshamru is sung to
another melody--only to learn that the correct procedure is to move to
the shochen ad mode (either at the end of hashkivenu; or for those who
say veshamru, at that point; or for the kaddish itself--at which point
the "choral" kaddish with the Eliahu Hanavi motif has now become the
default option).

I believe I may be able to help out here, and I hope Cantor Goffin is
reading so he can correct me if I am wrong in any details. The Maariv
nusah belongs to Maariv itself: namely, to keriat shema and its brachot
(beginning with hamaariv aravim, whence the name). When that is
concluded, a new section of the service begins, and as always, the
musical "centerpiece" of a new portion of the service, introducing its
distinctiveness, is the hatzi-kaddish that precedes it. Thus it is with
musaf on shabbat, musaf on all festivals, mincha on shabbat, neilah--the
distinctive melody is introduced by the hatzi-kaddish that precedes the
amida (though this doesn't seem to be the case at maariv on yamim
noraim, does it?). So too on Friday nights, the melody of Shabbat
(shochen ad motif, or the choral kaddish elaboration of it) is
introduced before the shabbat amida, after the conclusion of keriat
shema and its brachot.

By the way: this "maariv nusah" for Shabbat we are referring to is the
Lithuanian one. But there are, in Ashkenazic tradition, at least two
others: the Volhynian and the Central European (yekkish). (The
Volhynian, used mostly by hassidim today, is similar to what the Litvaks
now use on 3 regalim, by the way). But all three, I believe,
authentically switch at veshamru, or more likely, at ha-pores sukkat
shalom, to a mode essentially similar to Shabbat morning. In the case of
the Volhynian, it's practically no switch at all, since it resembles it
to begin with.

With the spread of the Lithuanian mode in recent decades, and especially
since in the yeshiva world and in Israel veshamru is usually skipped,
the custom of simply continuing the (Lithuanian) maariv nusah into the
kaddish has spread like wildfire, and even R. Serayah Dublitsky in his
"Tikkun Tefillah", a very Litvish booklet, sadly allows it--which is why
I was so relieved to read that Cantor Goffin does not!

Naftali inquires further about the correct nusach for the hatzi kaddish
on Yom Tov nights. He laments, "Having assumed that this kaddish should
maintain the nusah of the rest of the Yom Tov maariv, I have always
ended it in the same manner as the Barchu of that night"--and now he
realizes, on the analogy of Shabbat as he now understands it, that this
may not be correct (though many do indeed follow this procedure!).

Here too, I have a small contribution: there is indeed a unique,
beautiful hatzi-kaddish for maariv at Shalosh regalim. It seems to be
known by Brits and South Africans, and of course authentic yekkim, but
few North Americans have ever heard it. It is not on the
virtualcantor.com website, though I wish it were. I call it the "Glory
Hallelujah kaddish," because the distinctive melody for "behayechon" and
"le'eyla min kol birchata" reminds me thereof. When one of the baalei
tefillah in my neighborhood who know this kaddish is not asked to daven
maariv on yom tov eve, I complain to the gabbai. By the way I heard it
beautifully sung on Sukkot eve at the Riverdale Jewish Center.

For his final question, Naftali asks about the correct nusah for minha
on Yom Tov. We had a thread on this a year or so ago, and lots of
off-line communication as well. To summarize: Ashrei, Uva letziyyon
until the Amidoh--nusah hol. Daamiran be-alma ve-imru amen: nusah
yomtov. Hazarat hasha"tz: avot gevurot and kedushah: nusah hol. End of
kedusah until end of hazarat hasha"tz: nusah yom tov. Rule of thumb: if
atah ehad veshimcha ehad is not said, its melody is not
present--period. Naftali concludes : "I would assume that the Kaddish
after the chazoras hashatz for this Minchoh would again be recited in
the nusach of chol"--you assume correctly, and this is true on Shabbat

Baruch Schwartz


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:35:12 +0300
Subject: Tunes and personalities

> Interestingly enough, the transition from however one recites
> "V'shomru" (either in the classic nusach or the increasingly popular
> practice of singing it to the tune of Shlomo Carlebach's "Mimkomcho")

In the interests of avoiding lashon hara I will try to keep my question

To what extent should the personality, beliefs or behavior of a composer
influence the use of his or her works in our prayers?

Do we borrow from anyone and everyone, with the assumption that music is
pure, or do we hold that the composer's (or previous user's) lifestyle
or beliefs can make his music tref?  Or are there any considerations I
have not mentioned that would make my point either valid or otherwise?

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: <chips@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 18:04:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Veal

> >Is there a way not to draw the conclusion that had R. Moshe been
> >provided with accurate, complete and current data or would have seen
> >the conditions for other animals he would have been a proponent of
> >vegetarianism or veganism.

> Maybe, maybe not.
> What seems clear to me is 1) that we don't make such assumptions, and
> 2) that R. Moshe's ban on veal has been one of his rulings that has
> never been accepted, as is visible in almost every butcher shop and
> restuarant.

Actually, I'd be interested in how many people do avoid 'white' veal. I
know quite a few people (including myself pre-vegeterian days) who did
not buy or eat 'white' veal and I'm hardly in a circle of "ultra-frum"


[It would seem to me that the only responses that have relevance to the
discussion would be people that avoid 'white' veal because of R. Moshe's
(or some other posek's) ruling. Avoiding it because of personal feelings
of it being "wrong" would seem to me to be of questionable value. What
is the line between what you consider to "wrong" and those who hold that
it is not ethical to eat any meat products at all. As we have discussed
on this forum in the past, that opinion is likely not valid according to
halacha. Mod.]


From: .cp. <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 9:32:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism/Veganism and R. Moshe

>  Shortly after having viewed some of the Peta website materials I ran
> across R. Moshe EH 4:92 on veal.  At face value it seemed that any
> line between raising veal, which if I understand the response
> prohibits, and that of raising other factory farm animals would be a
> hard one to draw.

> The response appears to consider a number of types of tza'ar including
> confinement, food deprivation, eating enjoyment deprivation, edible
> animal yield, parent/young separation, and sickness.  It is not clear
> if these stand as independent or only cumulative considerations.  One
> other factor here was the kashrut risks inherent in the high trefot
> rate in veal processing.

> The response then counterbalances the tza'ar consideration with a
> number of permitted tzorech types.  These tzorech types seem to
> include nutritional value and perhaps taste but seemingly not expense
> or aesthetic value. One other factor was the deception practiced by
> the producers misrepresenting veal as healthier than other meats.  I
> wasn't completely clear on how to read which factors were driving the
> prohibition.

> All told, the response prohibits raising veal and, for a ba'al nefesh,
> discourages eating it, even when the calf clearly is not a trefah.

An exageration of what Rav Moshe wrote, plus I happened to attend a
speech Rabbi Tendler gave in which he explained a bit more about what
Rav Moshe wrote in the late 1970s.

Rav Moshe teshuva that probited veal only concerned "white veal", "red
veal" was fine. "white veal" has the problem that the calves are made
ill (anemic) and placed into pain. While not preferred, distress is ok
but pain is not. The combination of illness and pain placed 'white veal'
over the line of being acceptable, according to Rav Moshe - even if the
organs were checked.

Rabbi Tendler then addressed the question about other animals raised for
slaughtering. The concerning issues are cummalative and if in fact one
knew of problems that were similiar to all the issues with 'white veal'
(there were more than 3) then one should indeed ask LOR about the
permissibilty of eating from them.

Personal note: prior to becoming a vegetarian, I stopped eating eating
chickens that were not free-range. I do not try to convince people to
become vegetarian but I do ask that when eating meat/fowl to consider
what you eat. Note that "organic" does not equate to "free-range" , and
that even "free-range" is not legally defined in the way you would think
- which makes 'closed' chickens even scarier.


From: Feldhamer, Stuart <Stuart.Feldhamer@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:06:10 -0400
Subject: RE: Yisro-kel

> From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
> Reminds me of an old Jerusalem joke about the way children in 
> J'lem are known for their sharpness, while children in Bnei 
> Brak are known for "frum"-ness.
> On a first meeting, the shy Yerushalmi boy asks his 
> prospective mate, "Aich Korim Lach?" (What's your name?).
> She responds "Bas-kah", (instead of the usual pronounciation, 
> Batya, simultaneously using old Hebrew and the -kah suffix to 
> avoid the Holy name and thus proving how frum she is.. ) She 

That reminds me of a true story I heard, where someone was trying to
find out someone else's mother's Hebrew name (possibly because they were
sick, although I can't recall). The person who supposedly knew the name
wasn't that religious but he/she remembered the name as "Bosco". Nobody
could figure out what this person was talking about until it finally
came to light that the name was in fact Batya. : )


From: <ROSELANDOW@...> (Rose Landowne)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:09:37 EDT
Subject: Re: Yisro-kel

> Surely he must have said Kelikaku! Just like drinking Ginger Kale on a
> hot day!

And Ginger Melech during the Aseret Y'me Tshuva.
Rose Landowne

From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:45:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Yisro-kel

I remember seeing a wedding invitation that had "With gratitude to


End of Volume 52 Issue 58