Volume 52 Number 88
                    Produced: Tue Oct 10  6:49:34 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Eli Turkel]
Arukh Hashulchan for Hilchos Sukkah & Lulav
         [Dovi Jacobs]
Kashrus on EL AL
         [I. Balbin]
Kosher supervision
         [Kenneth H. Ryesky, Esq.]
Monsey Meat issue
         [Jeanette Friedman]
Punishment and Suffering
         [Frank Silbermann]
Suffering and Reward (2)
         [Rick Blum, Shimon Lebowitz]
         [Eli Turkel]
Yellow Jackets on Sukkos
         [Andy Goldfinger]


From: Eli Turkel <eliturkel@...>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:47:23 +0200
Subject: Ari

> I do not know what Menashe Elyashiv is talking about. It is well known
> that the Ari was an ashkenazi! Born in the Old City of Jerusalem in1534
> to his father Reb Shlomo Luria Ashkenazi!

It is also well known that his mother was Sefardi and that he generally
adopted the sefardi customs as he grew up in Eygpt and later lived in
Sefad both of which were mainly sefardi communities.

Eli Turkel


From: Dovi Jacobs <dovijacobs@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 05:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Arukh Hashulchan for Hilchos Sukkah & Lulav

Hilkhos Sukkah and Lulav are now complete, now making the entire
halachos of from Elul & and the Yomim Noraim through Sukkos now

Go directly to the full Orach Chaim index found at this link:


I plan to continue IYH with Hilchos Chanukah and Megilah in the coming
weeks and months. It would be wonderful if those learning the halachos
would use these texts, not only for their own benefit, but also for the
benefit of others as errors are uncovered and corrected.

Many improvements can be made, of course, and the more these texts are
used the more they will be improved. In general, I think most people who
use this digital version will find that the quality of the work is
fairly high, and that it is probably the most user-friendly version
ever.  Nevertheless, it is certainly not perfect. Most mistakes will
probably derive from my own learning: If I have sometimes misunderstood
a halochoh, this may also cause me to punctuate it incorrectly. If I
have failed to look up a gemora cited in the Aruch Hashulchon -- I have
not looked all of them up -- this may also cause misunderstanding and

Basic information on the texts, as in previous posts:

These are typed digital versions of the simonim that may be copied,
pasted, printed, used or adapted freely for any purpose. They can be
used for personal study, chavrusah, halochoh shiurim and in schools.

You can call up one siman at a time, or view all of Hilchos Lulav (for
instance) together on a single page. There is even a "printer friendly"
version available by clicking on "girsah le-hadpasah" in the toolbox on
the right margin, so you can send the entire Hilchos Yom Hakippurim to
the printer with a single click.

The online text is based on the old printed edition, but has new,
additional features:
 *  The abbreviations (roshei tevos) have been expanded;
 *  Full punctuation has been added;
 *  The text has been divided into smaller paragraphs.
 *  Dozens of links have been added.
 *  Texts appear in an extremely user-friendly format for easy

Along with using these texts, feel free to improve and correct them, and
even to add more simonim on your own. Two of the website's main
contributors have professional experience with editing Torah texts
and/or proofreading, and are happy to help.

Please be makdish your learning of the simanim from these texts in the
zechus of the wounded soldiers and civilians of Israel, our captive
soldiers, and for strength and peace for all Israel.

Chag Sameach,


From: I. Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:57:47 +1000
Subject: Kashrus on EL AL

I'm reluctant to bring this up in a public forum as I don't wish to be
party to any besmirching of what might be an "acceptable" Hechsher in
the event that discussions lead in that direction. I would ask that
people keep dispassionately to provable facts.

I haven't flown EL AL in ages and I can recall some years ago there was
an issue with Kashrus.

Have those problems now been overcome?
Is all meat glatt?
Is all dairy cholov yisroel?
Are relevant salad components washed?

If one eats under Rabbanut Hechsher in say a restaurant in Israel is EL
AL effectively the same standard (I realise it might be the same stamp)

They "say" that Rabbanut Yerushalayim is a "better" Hechsher. I don't
know what that means precisely and how much of it is politics and non
halachic issues.

While I am on a roll, do Ashkenazi people eat at El Gaucho's in
Yerusholayim (I think it's Beis Yosef Shechita and Glatt) if they are
lucky enough to be invited there by someone who can afford it :-)


From: Kenneth H. Ryesky, Esq. <khresq@...>
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 09:42:48 -0400
Subject: Kosher supervision

The JTA article cited in Arieh Lebowitz's post (MJ 52:86) goes on to

"The agency (the OU) started the laborious process of checking invoice
receipts against sales receipts the week after the Shevach Meat scandal
was exposed, [Rabbi Genack] said, adding that it could take several
months to complete the initial check and that its stores would be
subject to rolling, random checks in the future."

In such regard, the following quote is from a book written over 75 years
ago in connection with a major arson incident.  I would suggest that the
same principle applies to kosher supervision in Monsey and beyond.

"There are two ways of analyzing a set of books.  One way is to depend
upon the statement of the accountant for the insured that the books are
in balance.  The other way is to pay no attention to that certificate,
but to audit the transactions appearing and those failing to appear on
the books, without the slightest regard to whether the books are or are
not in balance.  Try to get the facts behind the entries and beyond
them, and you may learn the truth!"

      -- Abraham Kaplan & Samuel A. Berger, The Dachis Case, p. 61 
(Davidson Press, NY, 1930)

In fact, the same principle gave me many an occasion to find hidden
tax-related irregularities during my days with the Internal Revenue
Service.  I am pleased that Rabbi Genack is seriously looking into this!

-- KHR
E-Mail:  <khresq@...>


From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:56:51 EDT
Subject: Re: Monsey Meat issue

> Here in Baltimore, one butcher shop was caught when the Rav Hamachshir
> walked to the store on Yom Tov and checked the garbage.  The Rav of my
> shul has told us that his father hired a private detective when he
> became suspicious of a particular butcher (not in Baltimore).

What?! It happened in Baltimore and other places it wasn't a visitation
from G-d on the whole community? Well, I can tell you that during my
lifetime, this has happened all over hoods in B'klyn, and no one went as
crazy as they did with the guy in Monsey, who deserves whatever he gets.
My father, after the mid-60s refused to use Satmar Shechita until his

So all I can say is


And thank you Avi for labeling me as an apikores--even if indirectly,
you made your point, just in time for G-d to erase me from the Book of

Wonder what the rest of this coming year will be like. Hmmm.
gemar chasima tova.
who is now the official list apikores

[I would request a little more accuracy from you. I did not label you as
an apikores, I disagreed with what you wrote. While there are many
people that use the term in an off the hand manner, the term apikores is
a technical term, and if I were to use it, it would be consistent with
the technical meaning. One note, is that according to some opinions (I
believe based on the Rambam) you need to be at the level of being
appointed to the Sanhedrin to be qualified to be an apikores. The only
sense in which you are now an "official list apikores" is in the sense
that you claim that position for yourself. Avi Feldblum, Moderator]


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:20:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Punishment and Suffering

Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...> in V52 N85:
> The Rambam ... makes it clear that a) There is a Biblical obligation
> to VIEW and INTERPRET tragedies such as the holocaust as PUNISHMENTS
> DUE TO SINS. ...
> We should stop asking IF Judaism wants us linking the holocast to sins
> and instead ask (how) do we correctly identify the sin that caused
> the holocaust. ...
> R Blum makes interesting points .. .the "obvious" candidate for the
> punishment for German Jewry is their creation of Reform. But that
> seems inconsistent with the fact that the holocaust severity was
> greater in Poland.

I can think of two Torah-based approaches to Russel's question that
yield two different conclusions (one of which happens to be consistent
with the results of the historical approach).

The first Torah-based approach would be to consider the most heinious
sins commonly tolerated among the Jews most horrifically affected by the
punishment.  Considering:

(*) the absolute number of sinners (especially in Eastern Europe),
(*) the degree to which the sinners denied G-d,
(*) the degree to which the sinners threw off the yoke of heavan,
(*) the degree to which the sinners caused a Chillul Hashem among gentiles,
(*) the degree to which the sinners abandoned Ahavas Yisrael,
(*) the degree to which the sinners's actions contributed to,
    horrific crimes against humanity,

then it seems to me that the case against Reform Jews is far weaker than
the case against Jewish communists.

(Interestingly, the historical approach yields a similar answer, as
quotes from antisemites of the period made far more complaints about
Jewish bolshevism than accusations of Deicide or complaints about Reform
Temples springing up.)

The other Torah-oriented approach would be to note that most rabbis are
more concerned about their congregants assimilating gradually -- either
because they've already given up on the militant atheists already gone,
or because hardcore communism is now simply unfashionable.  If it is
more important to place the blame wherever such placement will best
serve our rabbinical leadership's current agenda, then perhaps we
_should_ blame Reform Judaism, after all.

Frank Silbermann	Memphis, Tennessee	<fs@...>


From: Rick Blum <dr-rick@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 06:45:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Suffering and Reward

> "So the 6,000,000 were all Tzadikim?  I know the 1.5 kinderlach
> were. But this is indefensible."

Of course, this would be impossible to accept.  The original question,
to which I was responding, was how tzadikim could be included in the
suffering and how geographical areas like Poland with more pockets of
deep Yiddishkeit and Frumkeit were not subjected to less suffering.
However, as long as we are on the question, another point raised in the
sources I mentioned is that even a rasha, once he is murdered because of
being Jewish becomes, although involuntarily, part of a Kiddush Hashem.
So, in that sense, all of us killed throughout the ages became, in
death, uplifted in righteousness to that extent.  Again, I have no
authority, but both the contempory and classic sources I mentioned are
consistent in these matters.

Rick Blum

From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:31:46 +0200
Subject: Re: Suffering and Reward

> OK, we can debate about the Rambam's ikurim being the final word in
> what a Jew must believe (see the debate on this in the pages of the
> Torah uMadda Journal a few years back).  But it is a very good place
> to start.  Believing that tzaddikim suffer for the good of klal
> yisrael is not among the 13 concepts articulated by Rambam.  There's
> nothing even remotely resembling this.

I am not getting involved in the matter under discussion (tzaddikim,
etc.), but I definitely believe that if we start limiting what we
consider "consistant with traditional Jewish halachic thought" to the 13
Ikarim, we will find ourselves with something very far from the Judaism
*any* of us practice.

> Furthermore, the concept of the "suffering servant" is heavily laden
> with Christian overtones - in fact this is the quintessential concept
> of Jesus and his role on earth.

Isn't it obvious that the xtians took this idea from Jewish sources?
(So I heard decades ago.)

Chag sameach!


From: Eli Turkel <eliturkel@...>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:52:25 +0200
Subject: Tehillim

> I raise this question because in the Jewish Times, an web-based weekly
> publication of "authentic Jewish beliefs and practices," published by
> Mesora.org, an article appeared (vol. 5, no 40; Sept. 15) that stated
> that reciting Tehillim for the cure of another person is not a proper
> Torah response under the prohibition against employing charms and
> incantations. (see site for full discussion)

Without answering the question I am told that R. Elyashiv is a "big fan"
of saying Tehillim for all occasions. It is a well known practice that
when a gadol is seriously sick that community tehillim are said in all
the yeshivot. Given the wide spread minhag in yeshivot of all sorts I
find this article quite strange.  One needs to find the justification
but the mionhag overrides any objections they may have

Eli Turkel


From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:27:55 -0400
Subject: Yellow Jackets on Sukkos

For those readers in the US or other countries whose Sukkos observers
are bothered by yellow jackets or other wasps:

We keep a few garden or house plant type spray bottles in our sukkah.
They are filled with water.  Since yellow jackets remain in their nests
during rain, when one enters our sukkah we gently "mist" it with water.
It seems to think it is raining, and flies away (presumable to its
nest).  You have to be careful to gently spray it since if it gets too
wet it cannot fly away.  Here, in Baltimore, this really works, and the
children really enjoy looking for the wasps and spraying them!

We put a plastic sheet over the grass in the sukkah so it doesn't get
watered on Shabbos or Yom Tov.

-- Andy Goldfinger


End of Volume 52 Issue 88