Volume 53 Number 23
                    Produced: Mon Dec 18  6:27:05 EST 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

List Priorities (2)
         [Jeanette Friedman, Avi Feldblum]
Neturei Karta at Iran Conference (2)
         [Jeanette Friedman, <smwise3@...>]


From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:28:55 EST
Subject: List Priorities

It amazes me the silence on this list about what matters and the energy
expended on fine points that amount to pure narishkeit. No discussion of
the major halachic issues currently confronting our Jewish future as
parents and spouses and our failures in that department--as witnessed by
the posts about carrying babies.


what about those lovely neturei karta and their chillul hashem.  What?
Not one call from anyone on this list to put them in cherem? not a
single comment on the disgusting display of the Camp Morris alum, Hirsch
and his buddies--who I regret to say come from the old hood and Wiess is
the son of my parent's friends., even Reb Yoeli said you don't sit with
the Islamists and der yid printed a blast at them,

But the silence on this list? It speaks volumes.

Let's instead talk about dikduk and pronounciation instead of the frum
woman beaten by haredim on the #2 as she was on her way to the kotel for
sacharis. (Hey wasn't that negiah? And doesn't the Torah say she needs
to be punished for kicking a male in his private parts--with the death

Let's not even mention the abrupt and corrupt cancellation of the agunah
conference in august, because reality bites, so while deal with issues
that affect our families, when we can play with theory that means
absolutely nothing.

Lovely indication of mindset here.

We must never speak here about the implications of the Kolko case and
all the other averot against our women and children, or the abuse of
Holocaust survivors by many American Jewish and Israeli organizations
(like the Sachnut, Bank Leumi and the government of Israel and 22 of the
24 orgs that sit on the Claims Conference) because dikduk and
pronounciation, leaving babies in the street on shabbos and other
narishkeit is more important to discuss on this "respected" halacha
list, with so many illuyim on it,

Did you notice many people post anonymously about their reality for fear
of retribution?

What is the message you are sending to the oilam? How are you seen when
you post narishkeit while the Jewish world implodes from immorality and
corruption around you and you remain silent?

Kefirah complete.

Jeanette, list member for more than a decade.

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006
Subject: List Priorities


The list priorities are set by what the members wish to discuss. I think
"discuss" is one of the critical words. It is very rare that you send
something in that is written in the format that lends itself to
discussion. The items here are much closer to that then others,
including the one that I have not sent on to the list.

I do want to address a few of your points. The first is on the neturei
karta issue. There was one other person who also sent in a related post,
also in this issue. For the overwhelming majority of us, I feel pretty
sure, the feeling is that there is no value in bringing up each time the
Neturei Karta do something that we all feel is stupid and against what
we all feel is correct. Every major Charedei organazation has condemned
their activities, multiple times over the many years of their doing
this. It is clear that they do not care. They care even less what we
write here. As such, I feel no reason to bring the topic up, and if not
brought up, it is not discussed. Even if brought up, it has been
discussed in the past and doubt there is anything new to say.

A second point related to your second post. You seem to me to be
claiming a cause and effect relationship between their position on the
Shoah / Holocaust and their overall behavior. I do not think that is a
defensable position. While it is easy to condemn their behavior in going
to Iran and all the other pro-Arab activities they do in their quest to
be more anti-Zionist / anti-Medina than anyone else, the fundimental
issue they bring up in terms of how to relate to the events of the Shoah
cannot be simply rejected with the statement of "see where it
leads". One can accept the concept that is quoted from them:

> However, our approach is that when one suffers, the one who
> perpetrates the suffering is obviously guilty but he will never
> succeed if the victim did not deserve it in one way or another.
> We have to look within to improve and try to better ourselves and
> remove those characteristics or actions that may have been the cause
> of the success of the Holocaust.

In saying that one can accept the concept, I understand the term
"victim" to mean Klal Yisrael as a whole, not each and every individual
who died in the Shoah. If we accept the concept of Divine Providence,
then it is difficult to accept that the Shoah was a purely random event
of human cruelty and has no message to Klal Yisrael. Where many of us
differ with the Neturei Karta, is on our understanding of what were the
characteristics and actions that may have contributed to the Shoah, and
how we go about removing them / improving ourselves. The Neturei Karta
seem to feel that they know that Zionism and what led to Medinat Yisrael
are among the causes of the Shoah and their active working with Sonei
Yisrael (the enemies of Israel) for the downfall of the state is their
life mission. The rest of us feel that their actions are totally outside
the realm of Torah, but they do not care what we think. They have what
they view as a "holy mission" and they will follow it, and ignore all of
us. For many of us, with the absence of a Navi (prophet) we cannot know
/ understand what may have been the underlying causes and message of the
Shoah. If we can use the aspect of responding to suffering as a means to
find elements within ourselves to improve, I think that is a positive,
and Torah supported, response to tragedy / suffering. I think that when
we instead use tragedy to point out elements that we think others should
change / improve on, that borders on the role that requires the level of
Navi, and is rarely positive today.

The issue of the frum women who was assulted on the #2 bus in
Yerushalaim is a different story. I'm somewhat surprised that it did not
come up as a discussion point, but you could have brought it up, if
there was something you wanted to discuss on it. It has been discussed
on the WTN list, and I'm sure other lists as well. I do think it points
to some serious issues within the community. At the same time, I do not
believe that discussing it here will make any changes in the
community. I would be very happy to wrong on that point.

The nature of this list is that what gets discussed is driven by what
catches the interest of the list members, and needs to be started by a
submission to the list. In general, a submission that is written in a
manner to stimulate discussion, is likely to have follow up
messages. One that is written in a manner to just berate the rest of the
list members, will likely just be ignored. So if you try in a real
manner to have a conversation on the topics that you think are of
importance, my guess is that you will likely find people who will take
up the discussion. If there are not, then it would seem that what you
find of importance, none of the other thousand on the list agree with
you on. At that point, you need to make the decision whether this is a
meaningful group for you to be part of.

Avi Feldblum


From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:00:51 EST
Subject: Neturei Karta at Iran Conference

I always said that the haredi blaming of the Jews for the Holocaust was a
problem. Now you see where it leads...the six million deserved to die?
when does it stop?

just curious.

Rabbi claims Holocaust dead "deserved it"
Maurice Chittenden

A BRITISH rabbi who angered fellow Jews by speaking at a "Holocaust
denial" conference in Iran now says millions did die in gas chambers but
may have deserved it.

Ahron Cohen, an Orthodox Jew from Greater Manchester and a leading
member of the anti-Zionist Neturei Karta movement, sparked new
controversy on his return from Tehran by suggesting that God would have
saved the victims of the Nazis if they had deserved to live.

Cohen, whose house in Salford was pelted with 1,000 eggs last year
because of his extremist views, told The Sunday Times: "There is no
question that there was a Holocaust and gas chambers. There are too many

"However, our approach is that when one suffers, the one who perpetrates
the suffering is obviously guilty but he will never succeed if the
victim did not deserve it in one way or another.

"We have to look within to improve and try to better ourselves and
remove those characteristics or actions that may have been the cause of
the success of the Holocaust."

Cohen's trip to Tehran - along with four American rabbis from the same
sect - was paid for by the Iranian foreign ministry, which organised the
conference entitled The Holocaust: A Global Vision. They were warmly
greeted by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, and had two
meetings with him.

Cohen ended his speech to the conference with a prayer "that the
underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East, namely the
state known as Israel, be totally and peacefully dissolved".

The rabbi claimed "learned gentlemen from both sides of the fence" were
at the latest conference. They included David Duke, former "imperial
wizard" of the Ku Klux Klan.

Cohen said on his return: "President Ahmadinejad is not a man of war.
He is a man of peace. I have received criticism for meeting him and
attending the conference, but Jewish people are adopting an attitude of
criticism from an emotional point of view, not a logical or sensible

"We know there was a Holocaust. We lived through it. I had relatives who
died in it . . . But in no way must the Holocaust be used to further the
aims of the Zionist concept."

Rabbi Yehuda Brodie, registrar of the Jewish Ecclesiastical Court for
Greater Manchester, said: "Rabbi Cohen has for a long time been
ostracised by the vast majority of Jews for associating with and thus
giving support and legitimacy to the enemies of Israel and the Jewish

"He represents an insignificant minority. His involvement is a stab in
the heart of the Jewish community and of all decent law-abiding people."

From: <smwise3@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:53:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Neturei Karta at Iran Conference

Are we our own worst enemies?

I am sure I am not alone in being sickened by the presence of the
neturei karta at the recent Holocaust denial conference. I am
appalled, however, that there were no well publicized statements by
any of the mainstream Jewish organizations condemning their presence
or what they said. Any speculation why, other than the theory that
everyone knows they're nuts?  S. Wise


End of Volume 53 Issue 23