Volume 54 Number 59
Produced: Thu Apr 12 5:00:29 EDT 2007
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Chametz - the 18 minute rule
[Israel Caspi]
Dog Food
[Carl]
Kalba and Pesach (meat and milk pet food)
[Dov Bloom]
Kitniot on Pesach
[Jonathan Baker]
an out-of-the-box question about matzah (2)
[Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz, <chips@...>]
Pet Food
[Goldmeier Family]
Pet Food on Pesach (or year round) (2)
[Janice Rosen, Bill Coleman]
Whole wheat flour for shmura matza
[Stephen Phillips]
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From: Israel Caspi <icaspi@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:57:21 -0500
Subject: Chametz - the 18 minute rule
These may turn out to be embarrassingly stupid questions, but they are
ones that I have frequently thought about and have never asked or seen
addressed:
According to Exodus 12:34-39, "The people picked up its dough before it
could become leavened... [and] the Children of Israel journeyed from
Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from
children. Also a mixed multitude went up with them, and flock and
cattle, very much livestock. They baked the dough that they took out of
Egypt into unleavened cakes..."
The Gemara (Pesachim 46a) states that the time it takes for un-kneaded
dough to become chametz is 18 minutes -- the time it takes to walk from
Migdal Ninia to Tiberias, which is 1 mil or 2,000 cubits.
Looking at a Bible Atlas, it seems that it would take substantially more
than 18 minutes to get from Rameses to Succoth and then to set up the
ovens and make the necessary arrangements to bake "unleavened cakes."
And with all the children, flock and cattle to look after, it hardly
seems reasonable to suggest that the dough was continuously kneaded
during all that time. So...
1. On what does the Gemara base it's determination that the time it
takes for un-kneaded dough to become chametz is the time it takes to
walk from Migdal Ninia to Tiberias?
2. Wouldn't the time it takes to walk from Rameses to Succoth make more
sense and be more consitent with the events describe in the Torah?
2. If 18 minutes is the correct rule for un-kneaded dough to become
leavened, and if, as stated above, it would have taken much longer for
the Israelites to reach Succoth and bake the unleavened cakes, doesn't
that mean that what the Israelites ate that first Peasch night was in
fact chametz?
--Israel Caspi
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From: Carl <casinger@...>
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 11:19:41 -0400
Subject: Dog Food
> I am not a pet owner, but I have always wondered - wouldn't it be
> simpler to give the cat/dog human [kosher] food e.g. a can of tuna to
> the cat? It's not so expensive to get a few more cans of tuna, but I
> guess I don't know how much cats eat. It has always seemed like a real
> pain for observant pet-owning friends to open a can of treif stuff for
> the pet with a special can-opener etc. How much of a problem would it
> be to just feed the dog some brisket with the family? Or is that
> totally assur from a veterinary standpoint?
>
> --Leah
I can't speak for cats.
We had a dog, Farfel, for over 17 years -- just about 120 in dog years.
Dogs are omnivores -- they'll eat just about anything (especially if
covered with gravy) and just about any quantity. But by nature they are
NOT carnivores -- grain & vegetables are for them. Chocolate, btw, can
be fatal to dogs.
For a healthy dog -- 17 years is remarkable for a mixed breed -- I would
recommend dry dog food -- Purina Puppy Chow and then Purina Dog Chow.
Yes, our dog ate table scraps -- he knew who the "suckers" were and
would implode to look thinner and beg. I recall once that a neighbor
having Shabbos dinner at our home slipped him about half a challah,
piece by piece, in response to his begging. A little brisket wouldn't
hurt -- but a lot would likely make him sick. After a shule dinner
where the prime rib was too rare he had several weeks of prime rib snacks
-- but not recommended.
OK -- the halachic issues:
1 - getting benefit (hanoh) from mixture of milk & meat
2 - owning chometz during Pesach.
Re: #1 -- check the labels & investigate.
Re: #2 -- Farfel's Vet, Dr. Lyndon Goldsmith, in Edison, NJ -- a Shomre
Shabbos Jew and a very caring individual -- devised a Pesach diet for
our dog that consisted of (as I recall) Matzoh Meal, Motzoh Farfel, Egg
and salt -- Yes, our dog ate Gebrochts.
BTW -- Our cat-owning neighbors had a separate can opener and their
cat's "kitchen" and "dining room" so to speak was in the garage well
away from the people kitchen & dining room.
Carl Singer
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From: Dov Bloom <dovb@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:20:45 +0300
Subject: Re: Kalba and Pesach (meat and milk pet food)
A poster quoted "A product listing both meat and dairy ingredients may
not be used any time during the year."
Why should one not be allowed to feed ones pets pet food with milk and
meat ingredients? IIRC In America the meat that goes into pet food is
treif and so what issur of Basar veHalav is there?
See Rambam Maachalot Asurot Chapter 9 sections 2 and 4. See also YD 87:3
and mefarshim there that there is only an issur hana'a if the 2 elements
are eatable by themselves, but lets say pork and milk would not be assur
behana'a. See Oruch Hashulchan 87:12 who explains the Rambam.
My reading: there is no issur hana'a on basar bechalav pet food unless
it is made with kosher meat. Certainly pork or dairy plus milk products
should be OK.
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From: Jonathan Baker <jjbaker@...>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 14:59:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Kitniot on Pesach
From: Barry S. Bank <bsbank@...>
> Binyamin Lemkin <lemkin@...> writes:
> > ...Rav David Bar-Hayim has issued a psak halacha which can be found at
> > www.machonshilo.org which permits the consumption of kitniyot for all
> > Jews in Eretz Yisrael.
> The psak seems to have been well researched and makes sense. But
> although I live not far from Shilo, and have a freind who works there,
> neither of us has heard of Machon Shiloh, R. David Bar-Hayim or the
> other 2 rabbis whho co-authored the psak.
> Can anyone elucidate and/or vouch for the Machon and the 3 rabbanim who
> signed this psak?
R' Bar-Hayim has been trying to reinstate the old Minhag Eretz Yisrael,
which pretty much died out during the Crusades, when the indigenous Jews
were killed or fled to Sephardic lands. There are clues in the Minor
Tractates, which are Palestinian in origin, from the Geonic period, and
in manuscripts from the Cairo Genizah.
Since Kitniyot was an invention of the European diaspora in the Middle
Ages, it was never the rule in Eretz Yisrael to avoid Kitniyot on
Pesach.
name: jon baker web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
address: <jjbaker@...> blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com
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From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: an out-of-the-box question about matzah
From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
> I learned that when the Jews left Egypt, they didn't have time to let
> their dough rise before they baked it, and that's why we eat matzah
> today. It turns out that this is Rashi's (and Sforno's) pshat in
> parshat Bo. Others (e.g., Ramban, Taz) learn pshat differently, saying
> that the Jews could have baked it after it had risen but deliberately
> didn't because they had already been commanded not to eat chametz. In
> any event, it would seem that according to the first pshat, that the
> Jews had to eat matzah and not bread was a punishment for their lack of
> faith that they would be redeemed: they should have put their dough up
> to rise days before, so they could have baked it as bread before they
> left. This "punishment" explanation makes sense: why else would we,
> today, have to eat burnt cardboard and pay $15/lb for the privilege?
>
> Question: Why can't I find this "punishment" explanation for matzah
> written anywhere? Presumably, it's because it's wrong, but why?
I should point out that in those days, bread had to be made closer to
use so that they could not have let it rise "days before" and then left
it unused until after Yetzias mitzrayim. Similarly, because of poverty,
they would have their daily "bread ration" and no more. Thus the food
to be eaten on the trip would have had to be made just before the trip
itself which would mean that it did not have time to rise. The
machlokes (disagreement) apparently involves whether or not they would
have had time *after* chametz became allowed again for the dough to
rise.
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<Sabba.Hillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7637/544/640/SabbaHillel.jpg
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From: <chips@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:40:04 -0700
Subject: Re: an out-of-the-box question about matzah
I was bothered by this point and its tangents for many, many years and
think I developed an answer based on one of Rabbi Reichman's shuir on
something totally unrelated.
There are 2 kinds of rushing , one because you are late and the other
because you are eager to do. An example of the 2nd case would be if you
owned a store 30 years ago and Rav Moshe came in to buy something. You
would rush to serve Rav Moshe. Similar to here: the Jews were in a rush
to do the tzivuy of Hashem concerning Leaving, and baking bread became a
very minor side point.
One could also say the Ground Rule gives another answer - the
"punishment" aspect is acknowledge by the very fact that we can only eat
`lechem oni ` - especially if the Jews were `emuna oni` at the time of
Leaving.
-rp
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From: Goldmeier Family <Gldmeier@...>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:57:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Pet Food
Leah, it is simpler to just feed the animal people food. We in fact
supplement the dogs dinner with some people food. But, many people do
not and it can cause great upset stomachs if not introduced into a diet
slowly and regularly.
I found a dog food that is inexpensive - I buy a 40lb bag, and is
acceptable for pesach - no chametz/only kitniyot. I don't have to worry
about diet changes and my LOR said the meat ingredient is ok to serve my
dog. Works all year and then she gets a treat of people food.
shaya goldmeier
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From: Janice Rosen <jkrosen@...>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 16:17:36 -0400
Subject: Pet Food on Pesach (or year round)
Leah S. Gordon (Thu, 29 Mar 2007) writes:
> I am not a pet owner, but I have always wondered - wouldn't it be
> simpler to give the cat/dog human [kosher] food e.g. a can of tuna to
> the cat? (...) (It has always seemed like a real pain for observant
> pet-owning friends to open a can of treif stuff for the pet with a
> special can-opener etc) How much of a problem would it be to just feed
> the dog some brisket with the family? Or is that totally assur from a
> veterinary standpoint?
Sorry, Leah, if you were to ask 100 veterinarians, they would all tell
you - and I don't think it's entirely so that they can make money from
their vet-certified foods - that cats and dogs need a mix of nutrients
which one is not likely to be able to duplicate by feeding them selected
items of human food. Following the recent pet food recalls a lot of
home-made recipes have been published as alternatives - and they could
quite easily be made in kosher combinations - but most of them sound as
complicated to assemble as a dish for a holiday meal. And whereas one
could argue that household animals in the past seem to have survived on
random scraps, they probably had a much shorter lifespan than what
today's pet-owners hope for. So for observant pet owners that "special
can-opener, etc." is really not a burden.
Janice Rosen
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From: Bill Coleman <wbcoleman@...>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:37:44 -0500
Subject: Pet Food on Pesach (or year round)
Leah Gordon wrote:
>I am not a pet owner, but I have always wondered - wouldn't it be
>simpler to give the cat/dog human [kosher] food e.g. a can of tuna to
>the cat? It's not so expensive to get a few more cans of tuna, but I
>guess I don't know how much cats eat. It has always seemed like a real
>pain for observant pet-owning friends to open a can of treif stuff for
>the pet with a special can-opener etc. How much of a problem would it
>be to just feed the dog some brisket with the family? Or is that
>totally assur from a veterinary standpoint?
Believe it or not, I have never been able to coax a cat into willingly
eating an all-tuna diet, Bucky Katt (Get Fuzzy!) notwithstanding. Go
figure So far as Pesach is concerned, however, Friskies now has a number
of flavors which are approved for pet use and they all have pop-top
lids, no can openers required. Happy cats, happy owners, chag sameach.
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From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:50:29 +0100
Subject: Re: Whole wheat flour for shmura matza
> From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
> Recently, we bought matza shmura (from one of Israeli matza
> manufacturers) which we were told is made from whole wheat flour
> (although this is not mentioned anywhere on the packaging). When
> pressed, the lab technician at the factory told me that since the flour
> has high fiber count (9%), it is considered whole wheat. All their
> shmura is whole wheat, but this is not mentioned on the packaging for
> marketing reasons.
> We are trying to evaluate the accuracy of this statement. Could anyone
> shed any light on this?
I was always under the impression that ALL shemura matzos were made with
whole wheat flour due to the fact that ordinary flour is processed
(e.g. bleached) in some way. Certainly, all the shemura matzos I have
come across are a darker colour that regular matzos.
Stephen Phillips
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End of Volume 54 Issue 59
