Volume 54 Number 60
Produced: Fri Apr 13 4:58:37 EDT 2007
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Agunot and the law of the Rodef
[Akiva Miller]
Character Assassination (3)
[Jonathan Baker, Meir Shinnar, Akiva Miller]
Introducing New Prayers
[Meir Shinnar]
"Mi she-Berakh for Agunot"
[Lisa Liel]
"Prayer for Women Murdered by their Spouses"
[SBA]
Zeycher vs Zecher
[Boruch Merzel]
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From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:03:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Agunot and the law of the Rodef
Frank Silbermann asked:
> I wonder whether the law about killing the rodef would ameliorate her
> guilt had she taken that route -- at least to the extent of, say, not
> suffering kores (having one's soul cut off).
Maybe it would, and maybe it would not. But such wonderings are best
left to the One Who decides such things. OUR jobs are to avoid murdering
except in self-defense, and to avoid making comments which others might
mistakenly interpret as giving license to do such things.
Akiva Miller
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From: Jonathan Baker <jjbaker@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:44:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Character Assassination
From: Guido Elbogen <havlei.h@...>
> > Many of the dayanim, unfortunately, and in spite of what avi feldblum
> > wrote, are not people of integrity - something that the community
> > recognizes but refuses to deal with - and prefers to criticize the
> > critics.
> Does this group tolerate such blatant slurs and character aspersion such
> as "many of the dayanim are not people of integrity" without any source,
It would be character assassination if someone actually named a dayan.
but one can recognize that the system is corrupt without naming
individuals. One could name a certain rov, who is widely reputed to be
the go-to guy if you need a heter meah rabbonim.
> on presumably talmidei chachamim who have spent many years learning
> dayanus?
If that were the case, perhaps not. However, it is well known - talk to
any Jewish divorce lawyer who has to deal with gittin - that the beis
din system is hopelessly corrupt, particularly if one uses the Zabla
method. The judges are *not* professional dayanim, with lots of
learning under their belt, they tend to side with the plaintiff, or
whoever offers them more money, etc.
Sources?
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n225.shtml#14
corruption in issuing heter 100 rabbis:
http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v25/mj_v25i50.html#COI
Look up "corruption" and "beis din" or "beit din" on Google, there have
been several discussions on this and other lists, from litigants,
lawyers and others.
Part of the solution is permanent batei din, associated with various
permanent organizations. Even those aren't perfect, but they're way
better than zabla, which is still used far too often. E.g., Beth Din of
America, or Beit Din L'Agunot in Israel.
(zabla- Zeh Borer Lo Echad, each one chooses one judge, and the two
judges choose the third. Without permanence, there's no
accountability).
name: jon baker web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
address: <jjbaker@...> blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com
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From: Meir Shinnar <chidekel@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:48:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Character Assassination
In response to my post
> Many of the dayanim, unfortunately, and in spite of what avi feldblum
> wrote, are not people of integrity - something that the community
> recognizes but refuses to deal with - and prefers to criticize the
> critics.
Guido Elbogen wrote
> Does this group tolerate such blatant slurs and character aspersion
> such as "many of the dayanim are not people of integrity" without any
> source, on presumably talmidei chachamim who have spent many years
> learning dayanus?
My post comes after many previous posts, both by myself and others, who
have documented this claim. I am sure Jeanette Friedman can give chapter
and verse with regard to agunot issues. From my friends in the haredi
community in America, this is a widely recognized problem that people
don't want to talk about - but they know to try to avoid the bet din
system because of its perceived corruption. There are good bate din (the
Elizabeth one has a good reputation), but this is a real problem. Nor
is it new. Read the biography of rav feinstein, written as an
introduction to the latest part of igrot moshe by his family. They say
that Rav Feinstein made his early reputation in America by being one of
the few dayanim with a reputation for integrity and ruling against
powerful interests. Furthermore, they said that Rav Feinstein was so
disgusted by the corruption in the zabla system - where each side picks
one dayan and then the two picked dayanim jointly pick a third - that he
refused to participate. In zabla, the judge chosen by one side is still
supposed to be objective - the choice by one side is supposed to ensure
objectivity, rather than partisanship - but frequently the zabla dayanim
would act as the agent of the side that picked them.
One can also get a sense of how the bet din system is viewed within at
least part of the haredi community by the recent and ongoing satmar
succession struggle - where both sides have turned to secular courts,
because there is no bet din with a reputation of sufficient objectivity
and integrity that they can turn to.
I think both Mr Elbogen and myself agree that there is a major hillul
hashem involved - but he views my writing about it as the hillul hashem,
while I view the continued existence of the probblem, and the communal
tolerance of it, as the hilll hashem..
The same poster claims:
> am not a lawyer, so can't comment on the specific legal issues, nor
> what remedies or compensation Yael Levine would be entitled to.
and yet does presume to speak in the name of halacha:
> does a disservice to the author is something that at the least is
> halachically questionable
also without sources.
I would suggest that misrepresenting someone else's ideas is
halachically questionable - even if only on the basis of veasita
hayashar vehatov.. This wasn't a psak - and halachically queationable
is not the same as assur - but let me ask the reverse. Is anyone willing
to publicly endorse that it is completely muttar lecatchilla, with no
halachic issues involved, (so it isnt halachically questionable), to
misrepresent someone else's position or statement - and that , if the
misrepresentation was in error and pointed out, and the person was
makpid that the misrepresentation was substantial and injured their
reputation, there is no even hashash that an apology, at the least, is
required???
The fifth helek of the shulchan aruch is still halacha, even if sources
aren't cited
Meir Shinnar
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From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:09:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Character Assassination
Guido Elbogen asked: <<< Does this group tolerate such blatant slurs and
character aspersion such as "many of the dayanim are not people of
integrity" without any source, on presumably talmidei chachamim who have
spent many years learning dayanus? >>>
I, for one, would prefer not to tolerate such slurs. But as long as
there are no names named, I feel that it is rather easy to ignore such
meaningless accusations.
In other words: I am not so naive as to think that there are absolutely
zero incompetents among the dayanim of the world. Surely there might be
one or two, here and there. But I do not know who they are, and will
give every individual the benefit of the doubt. I would of course prefer
not to hear even general slurs, but as long as no names are given, it
does not really change my feelings.
Akiva Miller
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From: Meir Shinnar <chidekel@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:03:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Introducing New Prayers
> Meir Shinnar also wrote: "Even though the tefilla lishlom hamedina was
> very carefully composed, and has become part of the standard tefillot
> of most Religious Zionist and Modern Orthodox shuls - I suspect most
> don't give the words the same attention that is given, say, to av
> harachamim. Therefore there is a very high hurdle to pass - both in
> terms of skill of formulation - but also in terms of getting
> acceptance...There is another issue, making her hurdle much higher -
> which is the content. the issue of the modern style agunot - whose
> husband won't, instead of can't, give a get - is a political issue -
> and viewed (unfortunately) by many as a feminist or left wing issue -
> and this was the thrust of the person who (mis)translated originally -
> and a subtext is that a tefilla on a feminist and LW issue doesn't
> have the right to be taken as seriously."
Yael Levine responded:
> Given that "Prayer for Women Murdered by their Spouses" has been
> already accepted, and likewise the additional prayers I have composed,
> and given that in most circles the prayer for agunot was received
> extremely well, despite what has been going on on this list, thank G-d
> I don't see the acceptance issue as a major one in my case. There will
> always be some people with a chareidi orientation, who would not
> recite such a prayer had it been composed even by a man.
It's been a while since I have been accused of a haredi orientation.
However, Yael misunderstands the thrust of my post. I am sympathetic to
her tefilla, and to her causes, and would have no problem saying any of
her tefillot - and would even endorse them.
However, the issue of acceptance is trickier. I daven in a variety of O
shuls, including LW ones. Some would be quite supportive of Yael's
tefillot, and if she were to be a scholar in residence or even just a
guest, with adequate notice, they might likely say her tefillot.
However, I have never been in a shul that has said her prayer for women
murdered by her spouses, nor, prior to her posting, do I recall even
hearing about it (it may have been on a post in mail jewish in the past,
but I don't recall it). Many of the rabbanim I know, if asked about such
a tefilla or the agunot tefilla, would give their verbal support.
However, on the ground where I am, I (and this is an empiric, not a
value statement) don't see them being widely said - except in some shuls
on special occasions.
When one adds that in America, the majority of Modern Orthodox shuls
will have YU rabbanim, who, while somewhat supportive of some aguna
issues such as the RCA prenupt, are leery (at best) of what they
perceive as (note: this isn't my perception )a more radical aguna agenda
- and many of them are also trained with some element of Rav
Soloveichik's rejection of prayer innovations (even if they don't fully
reject all innovations) - I think that it is a high hurdle. I will be
glad to be proven wrong....
Meir Shinnar
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From: Lisa Liel <lisa@...>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:57:10 -0500
Subject: Re: "Mi she-Berakh for Agunot"
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:28:25 +0200, Yael Levine wrote:
>SBA wrote: "The incredible series of posts... has more than
>reinforced my understanding and acceptance of the view held by
>nearly all Charedi Rabbonim , that our seder Tefilos should be not
>be tampered with and no additions should be made to the words
>uttered during prayer for the past centuries by our ancestors."
>
>I don't see any logical correlation between the two. Contrary to
>what he wrote, my earlier prayer, written a few years ago,"Prayer
>for Women Murdered by their Spouses" has gained extremely wide
>acceptance, and is recited in shuls worldwide on the Shabbat near
>the International Day for the Elimination of Violence towards Women,
>marked on November 25.
She's done such a marvelous job of deflecting criticism from her
composition by issuing libelous claims of copyright infringement that
some of the highly inappropriate content of her work may have been
overlooked.
Yael's prayer petitions Hashem to "place in the hearts of the judges of
Israel a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of good advice and
courage, a spirit of knowledge and fear of God, that they may release
all chained women and those who have been refused a writ of divorce from
their bonds." She has denied that this is an attack against the rabbis.
But it very clearly states that it is only a lack of wisdom and
understanding which prevents them from immediately solving the agunah
problem. I find that offensive in the extreme, and I think that Yael
should remove that statement from her work.
While I don't know that the seder tefillot should never be tampered with
at all, I certainly do think that the risk of such inappropriate prayers
calls for a serious vetting process.
Lisa
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From: SBA <areivim@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:51:12 +1000
Subject: "Prayer for Women Murdered by their Spouses"
From: Yael Levine <ylevine@...>
> SBA wrote: "The incredible series of posts... has more than reinforced
> my understanding and acceptance of the view held by nearly all Charedi
> Rabbonim , that our seder Tefilos should be not be tampered with and
> no additions should be made to the words uttered during prayer for the
> past centuries by our ancestors."
>
> .... Contrary to what he wrote, my earlier prayer, ,"Prayer for Women
> Murdered by their Spouses" has gained extremely wide acceptance, and
> is recited in shuls worldwide
You could've fooled me. I have, until this moment, NEVER even heard of
such a prayer. Has anyone else?
>Given that "Prayer for Women Murdered by their Spouses" has been
>already accepted, and likewise the additional prayers I have composed,
What are they?
SBA
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From: <BoJoM@...> (Boruch Merzel)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:35:13 EDT
Subject: Re: Zeycher vs Zecher
Anonymous writes:
>>Let's focus on the machlokess for a moment.
> How do various shuls deal with this?
> Is it "dealer's choice" or do they choose one pronunciation as correct
> THEN how do they communicate / enable / enforce this.
> I'm rather flustered by what I perceive as "dealer's choice" -- certain
> people emphatically use one pronunciation while others us the other.
> For example, during the repetition of the Shmoneh Esraei -- the "zecher
> l'tziot mitrayim" may be said with as "zecher" at shacahris and
> "zaycher" at musof. Similarly, it may depend on who is layining, etc.
> Also how do shuls trade off "tradition" (their traditional minhag re:
> pronunciation) vs. "erudition" -- someone digging in with a scholarly --
> "this way is better." or "this way is more authentic"
"Halvaiy", this were our only concern about what goes on in most
synagogues today! The gross mispronunciation that one hears on the part
of "sh'luchay Tzibbur", who accent every word on the first syllable; who
can't read a line without an egregious error that is never corrected;
whose davening sounds more like some strange incantation rather than
Tfila to Hakadosh Boruch Hu; yeshiva students and former yeshiva
students who read Ivri as though they were simply mouthing nonsense
syllables, with no understandfing of what they are saying; Baalay Kriah
(and rabbonim) who never heard of "Vav hamapeches" or "smichus", who
don't know the difference between "Uskaltem" and "Uskaltam"; are
obviously ignorant of any basic concept of dikduk,and who make a mockery
of the Torah reading........and we should worry about whether a shliach
tzibbur says Zecher or Zaycher??? Let's get real!!!
Boruch Merzel
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End of Volume 54 Issue 60
