Volume 55 Number 08
                    Produced: Wed Jun 20  6:17:08 EDT 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Confidentiality of Therapists
         [Janice Gelb]
Disciple of Children
         [Ari Trachtenberg]
kol beseder
         [Robert Israel]
Kosher Witnesses
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Pre-Tachanun Viddui: How Widespread? (2)
         [Perry Zamek, Dov Bloom]
Shabbat Zemirot (2)
         [Richard Dine, Ken Bloom]
         [Menashe Elyashiv]


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:02:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Confidentiality of Therapists

Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...> wrote:
> The postings presented correct proofs of correct points but did not
> address my posting. [snip]
> Why isnt the midrash story applicable in this
> case. Why arent the Aaronite Priesthood standards operant in this case?
> Lawsuits? Fine with me. Dont do it if you live in 20th century America
> but at least be honest enough to admit that it is a deficiency in the
> law.

You keep saying that no one is addressing your points but you have not
addressed the point being made by many people, including me: if you are
a licensed therapist then you have agreed to be bound by a code of
ethics. You have no right if you have set yourself up in a therapy
relationship with a client who has a reasonable expectation that you
will abide by professional ethics to decide that your personal halachic
standards should override those ethics and cause you to betray a
confidence and directly interfere in the patient's life.

*As a private individual,* you are free to live your life and deal with
your friends according to halachic principles. (Although as a couple of
people pointed out, your halachic solution to your scenario has several
possible outcomes, many of them harmful rather than helpful.) However,
*as a professional,* you have no right to breach the professional code
of conduct to which you are bound. If you think that you will be unable
to separate your personal moral standards from your professional
behavior, then you should not be in that profession.

I encourage you to look at a paper addressing just this subject:
Orthodox therapists. Several points are made about how an Orthodox
therapist should deal with cases in which Jewish law has been or might
be violated by the patient. In no case is the therapist advised to
interfere directly in the life of the patient by communicating
confidential information directly with others:


[I note that a frequent poster on this list is one of the sources

-- Janice


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:45:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Disciple of Children

> From: Alex Herrera <odat@...>
> I never used a strap to discipline my children because my father used a
> strap on me and it did little good. I believe that if I cannot make my
> point with the palm of my hand on a kid's backside, then the issue
> requires another method to solve the problem.

I would venture to say that the use of physical punishment on a child is
the resort of failed discpline.  My father (who never physically
disciplined us) conditioned us from a very young age to respond to a
specific tone of voice.  When he used this tone of voice, all arguments
immediately stopped, and we did as we were told (well, until we left the
home :-).

Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>


From: Robert Israel <israel@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:36:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: kol beseder

Leah Perl <leahperl@...> wrote:

> According to my sister in law, kol beseder derives from copacetic, and
> was originally 'kol btzedek'.  I don't know if this is true, or a bove
> mayseh.

It may be the other way around.  The origin of "copacetic" is unknown,
and one of the possibilities that has been advanced is that it is from
"kol beseder".  See e.g.

Robert Israel              <israel@...>
Department of Mathematics        http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel 
University of British Columbia            Vancouver, BC, Canada


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:55:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Kosher Witnesses

From: Alan Green <rabbialan@...>
> If there are three witnesses to a Mikvah conversion--all male, all
> Sabbth observant, all learned in Torah--but one witness is related to
> the convert through marriage (i.e. as a stepfather), is the conversion
> then invalid?

Since you say that all the witnesses are observant, the probability is
that this is a case of a couple adopting a (nonJewish) child and
converting him/her.  If the woman of the couple is the birth mother of
the child, who converted, and then married the "stepfather", then it
should be no different than the case of a Jewish couple who adopts a
(nonrelated) child.

If the woman of the couple has not converted, then he is not observant
and the question would be if he can be accepted as a witness at all.
Similarly, in *that* case there would be a question if the conversion is
valid (since how could the child have accepted "ohl mitzvos").

Another question as to the case is the age of the child.  If the child
is above bar or bat mitzvah, thus considered an adult, can this be
treated as the same as any other conversion.  A younger child (or even
until the child begins to live on his/her own) could be different.

It could be a situation in which a convert is a witness for his birth
brother.  Technically, the Torah regards them as unrelated.

These are only a few of the questions that arise at first looking at
your posting - with no seforim on hand to check.  In any case, I think
that you would need to specify more details

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<Sabba.Hillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water


From: Perry Zamek <perryza@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:15:45 +0200
Subject: Re: Pre-Tachanun Viddui: How Widespread?

The minhag of reciting Vidui before Tachanun on Monday and Thursday only
was explained to me as being the minhag of Talmidei Hagra (the students
of the Vilna Gaon) who settled in Eretz Yisrael. They also adopted the
recitation of the Ketoret at the end of the weekday Shacharit, and the
extra Barchu at Shacharit - except when there is a Torah reading - and
at Arvit.

 As far as I saw outside Israel, the Vidui is only part of Nusach Sefard.

Here's a question, which someone may know the answer to: In a shule that
davens according to the chazzan's nusach (switching from Ashkenaz or
Sefard depending on the shaliach tzibbur), should those davening
Ashkenaz recite the Vidui and/or 13 Midot on days other than Monday and
Thursday, if the shaliach tzibbur is davening Sefard?

Perry Zamek

From: Dov Bloom <dovb@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 11:06:43 +0300
Subject: Re: Pre-Tachanun Viddui: How Widespread?

The Viddui and 13 Midot were a practice of the mekuballim in Tzfat,
recommended by the ARI IIRC. Before the ARI no one said Vidui and the
Middot before Tachanun.  (ie from the time of Chazal until mekubalei

Minhag Ashkenaz did not adopt this "newfangled addition" to the siddur
while those influenced by the ARI did (the Sefardic communities all over
as well as the "nusach sfard" chassidic Ashkenazim added this to their
siddurim) .

So nusach Ashkenaz (Germans, Russians-Lithuanians-Latvians,
Hungarian/Austrian Oberlander non-hassidim etc etc) wouldn't have it
while chassidic communities would.

In EY Nusach Sfard of the Ashkenazim is predominant.


From: Richard Dine <richard.dine@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:48:46 -0400
Subject: Shabbat Zemirot

> From: Joshua Hosseinof <JHosseinof@...>
> Does anyone know the reason why the zemirot in Ashkenazic benchers are
> usually divided by category of Friday night, Shabbat morning, Seudah
> Shlishit.

While not a typical source for MJ, I do recall that The Jewish Catalog
(which I no longer own so cannot double check) said that the zemirot
were divided up at least in part based on their meter/melody, with what
was viewed as more mood appropriate for Friday night vs. Shabbat.  I
would certainly welcome a more thorough answer posted.  While we're on
the subject, I will mention that I have had some fun with my kids
through the years of trying to pick a Shabbat zemer at each meal that
has some specific link to the Parshah or other event related to that
specific Shabbat.  This past week one of the zemirot we selected was
Shimru Shabtotei since it at least references Kohanim and Leviim.  It
helps remind us that there is meaning to the songs and they are not just
for fun.


From: Ken Bloom <kbloom@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:12:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Shabbat Zemirot

> Does anyone know the reason why the zemirot in Ashkenazic benchers are
> usually divided by category of Friday night, Shabbat morning, Seudah
> Shlishit.
> ...
> Looking at the text of the zemirot, one can see that some of the
> Shabbat morning zemirot have the words "Yom Hashabbat" which gives a
> hint as to the reason for some of the songs.  My question is more as
> to who made the classification and when, as opposed to why.

I have been told that the distinction between Friday night songs and
Saturday morning songs is that the Friday night songs all mention the
coming of the Mashiach, and/or Olam Haba.



From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:18:47 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Viduy

The Ashkenaz minhag is to say viduy only together with slihot, and of
course on Yom Kippur.

The Sefardi minhag, based on the Ari, is to say viduy before tahanun.
As a compromise, some Ashkenazim in Jerusalem said viduy on mondays &
thursdays. This spread to some, but not all, Israeli Ashkenaz places.
However, in these days of mixed minyanim, one can find a true blue
Ashkenaz hazan saying viduy even in Minha, for the sake of the viduy
sayers. Also, I have seen some shtibule type places, that years ago were
Ashkenaz, and because of population changes, are now Sefaradi. Even the
Ashkanazim hazanim say not only viduy, but also the Psalm and Kaddish
before Aleinu.


End of Volume 55 Issue 8