Volume 55 Number 09
                    Produced: Thu Jun 21  6:14:10 EDT 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Confidentiality of Therapists (2)
         [Leonard Paul, Russell J Hendel]
Kol Beseder
         [Dr. Ben Katz]
Physical Punishment on a Child
Pre-Tachanun Viddui: How Widespread? (3)
         [Eitan Fiorino, David E Cohen, David Ziants]


From: Leonard Paul <lenpaul@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 07:30:23 -0400
Subject: Confidentiality of Therapists

From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
> I encourage you to look at a paper addressing just this subject:
> Orthodox therapists. Several points are made about how an Orthodox
> therapist should deal with cases in which Jewish law has been or might
> be violated by the patient. In no case is the therapist advised to
> interfere directly in the life of the patient by communicating
> confidential information directly with others:
> http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/6185/paper3.htm

Thank you so much. The fine article that you also enclosed was very
informative. Previously, I had not known about Jewish-psy. After reading the
article, I immediately requested to be added to the list. 

Leonard Paul

From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:39:47 -0400
Subject: Confidentiality of Therapists

Janice Gelb states "You keep on saying that others are not addressing
your points but you are not addressing our points...therapists are bound
by laws."

I in fact did address that in my most recent posting. Please read it. I
state "I am not asking anyone to break the law...but people are going a
step beyond that...they are saying ABSOLUTE confidentiality is
intrinsically good...they are JUSTIFYING it."

My point again is that in the Messianic era we will use the techniques
of Aaron the priest and the Midrash which allow (SOMETIMES and UNDER
LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES) the use of deception and breaking confidence. I
think you yourself hint at that in your email "What people do in
private..." What I am trying to say is that the ideal state of therapy
cannot be achieved because of laws constricting therapists.

Personally I would like this thread to continue not by attacking
therapists but by discussing those limited circumstances in which
breaking confidentiality is warranated and good

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.cms.hhs.gov/


From: Dr. Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:51:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Kol Beseder

>From: Robert Israel <israel@...>
>Leah Perl <leahperl@...> wrote:
> > According to my sister in law, kol beseder derives from copacetic, and
> > was originally 'kol btzedek'.  I don't know if this is true, or a bove
> > mayseh.
>It may be the other way around.  The origin of "copacetic" is unknown,
>and one of the possibilities that has been advanced is that it is from
>"kol beseder".  See e.g.

         I have heard this before and it makes no sense to me.  First of
all, I think kol beseder is a moden Hebrew expression.  Second, why
would the Hebrew expression have been so widespread as to have been
picked up centuries ago in English?  (Copasetic is an old word.  I
remember checking the etymology years ago when I first heard this and
remember reading "orig. unk.")  I think it is just a co-incidence of
words that sound similar and have similar meanings, as has been
discussed previously on this list (like "miyad" and "immediate", which
sound similar and mean "right away" but have different derivations
[miyad = at hand; immediate = not {inter}mediate]).


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:28:23 +1000
Subject: Physical Punishment on a Child

From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
> Alex Herrera
>> I never used a strap to discipline my children because my father used a
>> strap on me and it did little good. 
> I would venture to say that the use of physical punishment on a child is
> the resort of failed discpline.  

See the Baal HaTurim on this week's parsha 21:9.



From: Eitan Fiorino <AFiorino@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:59:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Pre-Tachanun Viddui: How Widespread?

> From: Dov Bloom <dovb@...>
> The Viddui and 13 Midot were a practice of the mekuballim in 
> Tzfat, recommended by the ARI IIRC. Before the ARI no one 
> said Vidui and the Middot before Tachanun.  (ie from the time 
> of Chazal until mekubalei
> Tzfat)
> Minhag Ashkenaz did not adopt this "newfangled addition" to 
> the siddur while those influenced by the ARI did (the 
> Sefardic communities all over as well as the "nusach sfard" 
> chassidic Ashkenazim added this to their
> siddurim) .
> So nusach Ashkenaz (Germans, Russians-Lithuanians-Latvians, 
> Hungarian/Austrian Oberlander non-hassidim etc etc) wouldn't 
> have it while chassidic communities would.
> In EY Nusach Sfard of the Ashkenazim is predominant.

It also appeared at some point in the Italian nusach, presumably also
under the influence of Sephardim, kabbalists from erezt yisrael, or both
(those are hardly mutually exlusive categories).


From: David E Cohen <ddcohen@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:40:21 +0300
Subject: Pre-Tachanun Viddui: How Widespread?

Akiva Miller wrote:
> I don't think I have ever seen, anywhere, an Ashkenaz shul which 
> said it on a day other than Mon/Thu.

Not only have I seen it said every day (not just Mondays and Thursdays)
in a few "pure nusach Ashkenaz" shuls in Eretz Yisra'el, I've even seen
it in the nusach-Ashkenaz-davening Congregation Ohav Emeth in Highland
Park, New Jersey.  This is, though, the only nusach Ashkenaz shul in
which I can reacall seeing Viduy said before Tachanun at all in the U.S.

Perry Zamek wrote:
> The minhag of reciting Vidui before Tachanun on Monday and Thursday
> only was explained to me as being the minhag of Talmidei Hagra (the
> students of the Vilna Gaon) who settled in Eretz Yisrael. They also
> adopted the recitation of the Ketoret at the end of the weekday
> Shacharit, and the extra Barchu at Shacharit - except when there is
> a Torah reading - and at Arvit.

This is all true, but it's interesting to note that according to the
footnotes in Siddur Ezor Eliyahu, all of these practices were picked up by
the talmidei haGra from the Sefaradim upon their arrival in Eretz Yisra'el.
They did not originate with the Gra himself.

Menashe Elyashiv wrote:
> However, in these days of mixed minyanim, one can find a true blue
> Ashkenaz hazan saying viduy even in Minha, for the sake of the viduy
> sayers.

In my current shul, the nusach (Ashkenaz or Sefarad) generally follows the
shaliach tzibbur, even for such questions as when the sefer Torah is put
back.  But there is a set-in-stone rule that no matter who is at the `amud,
Vidui is said before Tachanun at both shacharit and minchah.


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 07:31:04 +0300
Subject: Re: Pre-Tachanun Viddui: How Widespread?

This (i.e. the minhag of Talmidei Hagra) is documented in "Luach Eretz
Yisrael" of Rabbi M. Tuchichinski and is the normative Nusach Ashkenaz
custom in Israel.

When there are Nusach Ashkenaz congregations in Israel who do it
differently, then they are not doing it according to the norm. This is
usually because of the Nusach Sepharad/Ari influences as another poster
pointed out. I don't think these congregations, though, have the right
to call themselves "nusach ashkenaz" - but if they are neither strictly
nusach sephard what nusach name can they be given?

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


End of Volume 55 Issue 9