Volume 55 Number 99
                    Produced: Mon Dec 17  5:58:54 EST 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Beit Din
         [Mordechai Horowitz]
Chatan not going to Shul
         [Daniel Geretz]
Frum Network (2)
         [SBA, Mordechai Horowitz]
The Frum Network
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Is it Motzei or Mezonos
         [Tal Benschar]
Keviat sedua
         [Eitan Fiorino]
Selichos Nusach


From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:50:50 -0500
Subject: Beit Din

> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
> Perhaps I omitted to mention that this cabal managed to get a new rabbi
> appointed to further their plans without making clear to the membership
> in advance what these were and what the rabbi intended to do to
> implement them.  This rabbi has acted hand in glove with them and is
> therefore one of the defendants in the current Din Torah.

I hope you chose your Beit Din very carefully and are represented by a 
very knowledgeable Rabbi.

A typical Beit Din is made of shul Rabbis, who will have a vested 
interest in making sure dissident shul members cannot fire or remove an 
existing shul Rabbi.  It's one of the major problems  with the existing 
Beit Din system is that if the issue affects another Rabbi in the 
community, the Rabbi's on a Beit Din have a reason to try and make him 
happy in their rulings because he could be the Rabbi on a Beit Din 
involving their shul members or donors.


From: Daniel Geretz <danny@...>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:02:44 -0500
Subject: Chatan not going to Shul

Perhaps the rationale for a chatan not going to shul is as follows:

According to those who say the Chatan is patur from tefilla all seven
days, they might hold as well that the Chatan cannot be counted towards
a minyan (since he does not have the same level of obligation as others;
the same rationale under which women and children do not count toward a

Under this reasoning, there is no purpose at all for the Chatan to go to
shul (not obligated to daven, can't count toward a minyan) and therefore
it is obvious that the Chatan is only going to shul so that people can
"get out" of saying tachanun.  As a matter of fact, according to this
opinion, it may even be a violation of "simchat chatan v'kallah" to have
the Chatan go to shul merely as a convenience for others.

This is different from an aveil or ba'alei simcha at a brit milah, who
are obligated in tefilla and therefore count for a minyan.  Even in a
case where they [the ba'alei simcha] have davened already and do not
have to fulfill their own obligation, they still can count for a minyan
and therefore there is some "purpose" to their being there.

Thus, one does not necessarily reach the same obvious conclusion as

Although not Chassidic, that part of me which is consistent with my
Chassidic ancestors is of course screaming about the above rationale and
missed opportunities to skip tachanun.  The lengths that Chassidim go to
in order to avoid saying tachanun reminds me of the story of a Chassidic
shteible where the Rav went out of his way, every day, to find a reason
not to say tachanun.  This went on for years, and finally, one day, try
as he might, the Rav was unable to find a reason to skip tachanun.  When
the congregation got to tachanun, all eyes turned expectantly to the
Rav, who said "I found out that there's a very honored guest in town
today.  His name is "tachanun," and in honor of this important guest, we
are going to skip tachanun."

Danny Geretz


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 23:55:42 +1100
Subject: Frum Network

From: Aliza Berger-Cooper <alizadov@...>

> Chaim Shapiro wrote about supporting frum businesses via his LinkedIn
> Frum Network. I don't understand - why should one support a frum
> business over a non-frum Jewish business?

"Vechay achicha imach" - which, AFAIK, refers to a shomer Torah uMitzvos

> wouldn't there be opportunities to be mekarev non-religious people
> through getting to know them by doing business with them?

I suppose if you feel that you can achieve something - then sure, go


From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:24:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Frum Network

Many times Shabbos observant businesses and employees are discriminated
against because of their religion.  This is more true when dealing with
non religious Jews than gentiles.  Non religious Jews often see it as
very important to prove they aren't Orthodox and do so by demeaning,
insulting and discriminating against religious Jews.

The bigger question you have is is there a legal problem in countries
like the US which have strong anti discrimination laws in participating
in such a group.  Morally I see nothing wrong with it, but I am not a
lawyer so I will leave the legal question to someone else.


From: <ChaimShapiro@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:32:36 EST
Subject: The Frum Network

Dr. Berger-Cooper raised an appropriate question about my FrumNetwork, a
Frum LinkedIn Networking Group dedicated to connecting Frum
Professionals.  I would like to clarify my position.  As my initial post
mentioned, my goal is to implement a Frum First policy in the Frum
community.  I maintain that whenever possible, Frum professionals should
utilize the services of other Frum professionals before seeking those
services elsewhere.  I believe affording that consideration to other
Frum professionals is an incredible act of Chessed that has the
potential to increase and keep more revenue in the Frum community.  Such
an increase in revenue is also likely to have a multi tiered impact and
also increase the amount of Tzedkah given to our organizations, etc.

The reason I recommend a Frum FIRST as opposed to Frum ONLY policy is
because there are, without question, very legitimate and appropriate
reasons for using the services of professionals from outside of the Frum
community.  I will let the list discuss, if it is so inclined, IF Kiruv
would qualify as one of those reasons as Dr. Berger-Cooper sugests, but
the point remains; the economic advantages a Frum First professional
policy would bring to our communities and our organizations must not be

If you would like to join the Frum Network, please sign up here

Chaim Shapiro


From: Tal Benschar <tbenschar@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:34:51 -0500
Subject: Is it Motzei or Mezonos

Carl Singer writes: 

> In a shiur a few months ago I heard of someone who has a "recipe" for
> making French Toast in a manner that makes it motzei rather than
> mezonos.  (Apparently, cutting the bread up prior to the preparation,
> the bread loses it identity as motzei ....  I don't know all the
> details)

AFAIK, the basic halakha is that it depends upon whether the resulting
foods retains "tsuras ha pas" -- the appearance of bread.

The standard French Toast recipe I know of basically takes a slice of
bread, dips it into a mixture of eggs and milk, then fries it.  The
result looks like a slice of bread.  You would wash and recite hamotzi
on that.

Now if you ground the bread up into crumbs, combined it with some liquid
or fat, and then cooked it, the result would probably lack "tsuras ha
pas" and the berachah would be mezonos.  Think of matzo balls -- matzo,
which is hamotzi, is ground up, combined with eggs and oil, and then
boiled.  You would recite mezonos on those.

Matzo brei is somewhat in between and I always have an issue with that.
The pieces are usually recognizably matzo, so it seems that hamotzi
would be in order.  I usually take a piece of matzo and recite hamotzi
on that.

Carl Singer further writes: 

> My overriding concern is that it seems to me that the bracha to be
> made over food should ideally be taken at face value.  That is without
> knowing the provenance of the food and without taking out my
> microscope or going to a laboratory, I should know what the
> appropriate (bracha) category is for the food that I am about to
> consume.

I don't see how you can avoid this.  You have to know what something is
made of in order to recite the correct beracha.  For example, around
Pesach time it is very common to see cookies and cakes made out of
potato flour.  Since they are not made out of the "five grains," their
beracha is shehakol, not mezonos.

I don't think you need a microscope or a degree in food chemistry, but
basic knowledge of what the food is made out of and how it was made
seems a pre-requisite to determining the correct beracha.  (Of course,
in practice people just assume the foods they eat are the same as they
have always eaten with the same beracha.  I see a cookie, I make
mezonos.  It is only when something novel or unusual is served that
issues arise.)

Since we are on the topic, a related and interesting topic is how one
determines what the custom of the country is with regards to how foods
are eaten.  The halakha is that vegetables that are eaten in their
normal way receive ha'adama, but if eaten abnormally, one recites
shehakol.  Thus if a certain vegetable is always eaten cooked, and you
decide to eat it raw, then you recite shehakol.  (Think of eating a raw
onion.  I mean straight up, like an apple, without any sugar or vinegar

Now this raises interesting issues.  Apparently, in Europe the custom
was to eat carrots only cooked, never raw.  Raw carrots were simply
unheard of.  I have heard of numerous European born rabbonim in America
paskening that one recites shehakol on a raw carrot. (If I am not
mistaken, there is a teshuva in the Iggeros Moshe to this effect.)

However, those of us who were raised in America know that it is quite
common to eat raw carrots -- think of carrot sticks, not to mention Bugs

What are we to make of such psakim?

Tal Benschar


From: Eitan Fiorino <AFiorino@...>
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 07:45:16 -0500
Subject: Keviat sedua

After describing the preparation of a yerushalmi kugel, Menashe Elyashiv
<elyashm@...> wrote:

> It seems that this kugal is not mezonot for keveat seuda, altho
> someone told me that even so, it could be.

There have been a few posting suggesting at least a theoretical
obligation in birkat hamazon after consuming pasta.  I just don't
understand this.  The only thing that can create a chiuv of birkat
hamazon is pat (bread), or safek pat.  Pasta in no circumstance can be
considered pat or safek pat.  Thus is seems to me that there is no limit
to the amount of pasta one could consume without obigating oneself in
birkat hamazon.  Can someone explain to me the havaamina here?



From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 00:04:27 +1100
Subject: Selichos Nusach

[Note: My apologies for an out of order posting, this posting should
have been the first in the series with the other two on this topic in
the previous issue. Mod]

>From: David Ziants
> Thus I went around Me'ah She'arim looking for a "Nusach Ashkenaz"
> Selichot and was getting very frustrated because all they could offer
> me was the more common Polin (Polish), or Lita (Lithuanian) with a
> strange look as if to say "do you really want Lita because not many
> places use it".

There is a selichos Nusach Ungarn (Hungary) - which AFAIK is also used
by Yekkes.

Weingarten the publisher of Selichos Hamevo'or (Nusach Ashkenaz, ie Lita
and Polin) published a new edition a few years back. Before that the
only available edition was by Sinai Tel Aviv - which had hundreds of



End of Volume 55 Issue 99