Volume 56 Number 01
                    Produced: Tue Dec 18  5:33:38 EST 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Beit Din
         [Martin Stern]
Chatan not going to Shul
Frum First
         [Irwin Weiss]
The Frum Network
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Frum only, frum first
         [Carl Singer]
Hashgacha on Restaurant Open on Shabbos
         [Nachman Yaakov Ziskind]
Selichos Nusach (4)
         [Martin Stern, Shayna Kravetz, Martin Stern, Alex Heppenheimer]
Shame of bet din situation
         [Joseph Ginzberg]


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:52:58 +0000
Subject: Re: Beit Din

On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:50:50 -0500, Mordechai Horowitz
<mordechai@...> wrote:

>> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
>> Perhaps I omitted to mention that this cabal managed to get a new rabbi
>> appointed to further their plans without making clear to the membership
>> in advance what these were and what the rabbi intended to do to
>> implement them.  This rabbi has acted hand in glove with them and is
>> therefore one of the defendants in the current Din Torah.
> I hope you chose your Beit Din very carefully and are represented by a
> very knowledgeable Rabbi.
> A typical Beit Din is made of shul Rabbis, who will have a vested
> interest in making sure dissident shul members cannot fire or remove an
> existing shul Rabbi.  It's one of the major problems  with the existing
> Beit Din system is that if the issue affects another Rabbi in the
> community, the Rabbi's on a Beit Din have a reason to try and make him
> happy in their rulings because he could be the Rabbi on a Beit Din
> involving their shul members or donors.

Here in England things are slightly different in that at least in
Manchester, where I live, and London there are fixed official town Batei
Din. I am quite aware of the problem Mordechai raises but as I have a
highly qualified toen, I have every confidence in winning.

Martin Stern


From: <JRich@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 06:53:37 CST
Subject: Chatan not going to Shul

> Although not Chassidic, that part of me which is consistent with
> my Chassidic ancestors is of course screaming about the above rationale
> and missed opportunities to skip tachanun.  Danny Geretz

Any idea why someone who strongly identifies with the emotional
component of prayer would be eager to skip tachanun?

Joel Rich 


From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 06:52:24 -0500
Subject: Frum First

The "Frum first" policy creates further barriers between contacts and
rapproachment between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews unnecessarily.  In
Baltimore, the Orthodox rabbinate (in large part) has favored open
communication and discussion with the non-Orthodox population, and I
personally think that both groups are better off due to this.  It is
true, sometimes, as Mordechai Horowitz posts that "Non religious Jews
often see it as very important to prove they aren't Orthodox and do so
by demeaning, insulting and discriminating against religious Jews."
This is bizarre and hateful behavior that I can't stand, and I always
reproach one who makes such comments, but, comments in the other
direction are also very disturbing.

I am a member of a Conservative congregation, but I always feel welcomed
at the homes of our Chassidic neighbors and so we were privileged to
co-sponsor a Sheva B'rachot recently for that family's son and

And, to follow up a comment of Chaim Shapiro, that "there are, without
question, very legitimate and appropriate reasons for using the services
of professionals from outside the Frum community", I can say that, as an
attorney, I have a number of clients from the Frum community, who, I
suppose, feel that their personal issues are best left in the hands of
someone from outside the community.

But, for Chaim I would ask this: If it is an incredible act of Chesed to
utilize the services of the frum community to keep the money in the frum
community, is it an incredible (or other) act of Chesed for a Reform or
Conservative Jew to try first to use the services of a Reform or
Conservative Jew, so that they can keep the money in the Reform
community and thus, out of the hands of the Orthodox community?  Don't
we have enough external enemies?

Irwin Weiss


From: <ChaimShapiro@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:49:42 EST
Subject: The Frum Network

Once again, I would like to clarify my position regarding the Frum
Network.  The Frum Network is not meant to be exclusionary.  The idea is
to encourage a Frum FIRST professional policy in the Frum community to
help generate and retain more business and resources in the Frum
community. Hopefully, such a policy will have a ripple effect that will
help alleviate some of the financial crunch so many of our Mosdos and
our families are feeling.

I have been a bit dismayed at emails I have received off list that
accuse me of questioning the legitimacy of Non-Frum Jews as Jews, etc.
Nothing could be further from the truth.  In my mind, the Network is no
different than deciding (and encouraging people) to purchase products of
similar quality and price in a Frum store versus a National chain, etc.

The Frum Network http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/42561/2626F017E6FC is one
of several mediums I am trying to utilize to encourage business
relationships in the Frum community.  The Frum Network also utilizes a
Yahoo Listserve with the same name
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Frumnetwork/ and is affiliated with a Free
Orthodox Classifieds site at www.avislist.com

I would hope that the community sees these resources in the way that
they were intended, a means by which to connect Frum professionals and
maximize the revenue and Tzedaka that our community generates.

As an aside, I am looking at starting 2-3 MORE such websites.  I do not
have the time or the resources to run those sites on my own.  If anyone
knows someone who might be interested in such sites, please feel free to
contact me.

Chaim Shapiro


From: Carl Singer <csngr@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:36:45 -0500
Subject: Frum only, frum first

Pardon me apriori if I've told this story before -- but many years ago
while enjoying a Shabbos in Richmond, VA at the Fabreigen Inn, two young
chaddishe (not Lubavitch) men (late teens, early 20's) were at our
table.  They mentioned buying Plony's potato chips, because plony was a
big ba'al tzeduka -- vs. a popular brand (no issues of kashrut) that
cost a nickel less -- because they wanted to support plony.  I asked
them why didn't they just put the nickel in the tzedukah box and buy the
popular brand -- cutting out the middle man.

A frum first or frum only policy involves an opportunity cost -- that is
it may cost you more money to adhere to this policy than to purchase in
the "open market."  (Econ 101) --

Let's also look at the other side - there are now "Christian Yellow
Pages" -- perhaps an advertising gimmick or perhaps a heartfelt attempt
by someone to follow their religious preferences.  Is that
discrimination?  What if Abe Cohen wants to advertise in the Christian
Yellow Pages -- will he be allowed to?  If not, is he being
discriminated against?

Really a bag of worms -- and are they kosher?



From: Nachman Yaakov Ziskind <awacs@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:09:06 -0500
Subject: Hashgacha on Restaurant Open on Shabbos

so the 2nd ave deli reopened:

"And it still boasts being kosher despite the fact it's open seven days
a week, 24 hours a day.

"Everything we use is kosher,'' Lebewohl said. "We have no dairy
products used on site. I do have rabbinical supervision.''

"But is it truly kosher? It's open on the sabbath?

"Jeremy Lebewohl thought for a moment and reached into his deceased
uncle's play book, pulling out a gem of Jewish wit.

"If you have so many questions about it, this is probably not the place
for you,'' he said."

I agree that it's not the place for me. But I wondered what kind of
hashgacha would certify a restaurant open on shabbos? I have this vision
of the mashgiach walking over after shabbos davening, passing through
the crowds of customers on his way to the back to unlock the fridge.

Anyone know who's hashgacha is this?

Nachman Yaakov Ziskind, FSPA, LLM       <awacs@...>


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:45:14 +0000
Subject: Re: Selichos Nusach

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:46:53 +0200, David Ziants <dziants@...> wrote:
> The instructions are in Yiddish and the cover page says it is according
> to the minhag:
> Ungarin (Hungary),Mehren (mem, ayin, hey, resh, ayin, nun sofi) (?),
> Behemen (Bohemian), Sh'lezi'en (shin,lamed,ayin,zayin,yud,ayin,nun) (?)
> (?) I do not know what are the common names of these localities are in
> English - any help please?

Mehren = Moravia, now like Bohemia part of the Czech Republic, main
Jewish community at Nikolsburg now called Mikulov.

Sh'lezi'en = Silesia, now part of Poland but until 1945 part of Germany,
having been acquired by Prussia from Austria as a result of the War of
Austrian Succession in the eighteenth century.

This was the nusach for Selichos used quite widely in North and East
Germany (e.g. Hamburg and Berlin) as well as being the standard used in
England today.

Martin Stern

From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:00:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Selichos Nusach

>Ungarin (Hungary),Mehren (mem, ayin, hey, resh, ayin, nun sofi) (?),
>Behemen (Bohemian), Sh'lezi'en (shin,lamed,ayin,zayin,yud,ayin,nun) (?)
>(?) I do not know what are the common names of these localities are in
>English - any help please?

The last reference (what you give as Sh'lezi'en) would be to Silesia.
But I'm no help on Mehren.

Kol tuv,
Shayna in beautifully snowy Toronto

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:00:35 +0000
Subject: Re: Selichos Nusach

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 00:04:27 +1100, SBA <sba@...> wrote:

> There is a selichos Nusach Ungarn (Hungary) - which AFAIK is also used
> by Yekkes.

 From North and east Germany, those from the South and west use a
completely different nusach, now current only in Switzerland and Alsace
and (probably) Washington Heights (otherwise known as Frankfurt an der

> Weingarten the publisher of Selichos Hamevo'or (Nusach Ashkenaz, ie
> Lita and Polin) published a new edition a few years back. Before that
> the only available edition was by Sinai Tel Aviv - which had hundreds
> of errors.

The Rosenfeld edition, widely used in England, follows this nusach.

Martin Stern

From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:23:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Selichos Nusach

In MJ 55:98, David Ziants wrote:

>Ungarin (Hungary),Mehren (mem, ayin, hey, resh, ayin, nun sofi) (?),
>Behemen (Bohemian), Sh'lezi'en (shin,lamed,ayin,zayin,yud,ayin,nun) (?)
>(?) I do not know what are the common names of these localities are in
>English - any help please?
>I think they are supposed to be in Central Europe.

and SBA replied:

>Germany/Slovakia (Bohemia and Moravia). As I suggested these countries
>said selichos in the nusach which today is called 'Ungarn'/Hungary.

Mehren is indeed Moravia. Shlezien is Silesia (mostly in present-day
southwestern Poland).

Kol tuv,


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:03:18 -0500
Subject: Shame of bet din situation

>A typical Beit Din is made of shul Rabbis, who will have a vested
>interest in making sure dissident shul members cannot fire or remove an
>existing shul Rabbi.  It's one of the major problems with the existing
>Beit Din system is that if the issue affects another Rabbi in the
>community, the Rabbi's on a Beit Din have a reason to try and make him
>happy in their rulings because he could be the Rabbi on a Beit Din
>involving their shul members or donors.

I have long been dismayed and upset over the bet din situation,
particularly in New York.  Why is it that so many millions can be raised
for yeshiva buildings and other causes, and no one creates an endowed
bet din that allows the rabbis a guaranteed living without their having
to custom-tailor their piskei din to suit their funders?

I do understand that a dayan needs to feed his children, and thus cannot
really blame those caught up in the current situation, but if they were
independent, it would solve so many chilul-Hashen issues that it's hard
to comprehend why this isn't on the top of every organization's project

It would seem to be simple enough: Raise a large enough endowment to pay
the salaries of a few rabbi's and a secretary or two, release them from
fear of being terminated for any ruling, and voila! You'll have real,
fair, and legitimate piskei din.  The amount involved would be less than
the cost of a single new Boro-park yeshiva building, and the gain would
be immense.  Not only the legitimacy of batei din would be improved, but
the respect for the rabbinate, the actual usage by businesspeople, and
the reduction in "heimishe scandals" that end up now in the secular

Nu? Somebody do it, please!

Yossi Ginzberg


End of Volume 56 Issue 1