Volume 56 Number 65
                   Produced: Tue, 26 May 2009 23:16:10 EDT

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Administrivia - For real issue
       [Avi Feldblum]
A new topic for discussion
       [Michael Engel]
Baruch Hu U'varuch Sh'mo
       [Frank Silbermann]
Der Yid Hakadosh
       [J Friedman]
HaRav David Bar-Hayim
       [Ira L. Jacobson]
Kadish after Krias Hatorah
       [Martin Stern]
Making a bracha on silent reading
       [Yisrael Medad]
Quote from Pastor Martin Niemoller
       [J Friedman]
Zman Shacharis/t on the plane (3)
       [Art Werschulz, Bill Coleman, Gershon Dubin]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Sun, May 24,2009 at 09:29 PM
Subject: Administrivia - For real issue

Hello All,

My thanks to Ari Trachtenberg for the work he has been doing over the last
two weeks in developing a web based front end for editing / moderating
mail-jewish, so we can move to a format where I will have the support of a
few more people in running the list. This issue has been assembled using
Ari's application. I'm sure that there are some points where it is not the
same as the current linux / perl / emacs methods. If you see differences in
this issue that you see as potential issue for you, please let me know.

Avi Feldblum


From: Michael Engel <michael11694@...>
Date: Sun, May 24,2009 at 05:47 PM
Subject: A new topic for discussion

> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
> In light of this can anyone suggest why it is not said by the mother
> after a safe delivery since its wording would seem particularly
> appropriate at that time?

Perhaps the mother is preoccupied?

Martin Stern


From: Frank Silbermann <frank_silbermann@...>
Date: Tue, May 26,2009 at 09:35 PM
Subject: Baruch Hu U'varuch Sh'mo

In congregations where one does say this after certain brochos,
what is the basis for the custom of abbreviating the phrase to "Shmoy"?

Frank Silbermann, Memphis, TN


From: J Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Tue, May 26,2009 at 09:35 PM
Subject: Der Yid Hakadosh

Der Yid Hakadosh was just as emphatic that a rav had no right to expect his
followers to obey him blindly and that doing so was avodah zorah. See
Michael Rosen's book about Pysysha. (pronounced Pshischa).

Which brings me to another issue concerning Der Yid.

I have just finished reading For the Sake of Heaven by Buber and am stunned
at some of the goings on between the Choser of Lublin, Rabbi Shimon Deutsch,
Der Yid, Reb Dovid of Lelov and the others. It astonished me that the Choser
in particular used whatever means necessary to hasten Moshiach by supporting
Napolean Bonaparte because he thought Napolean was the leader of Gog.

Does anyone have more information about this? The idea of using kaballah to
strengthen Napolean to bring Moshiach---isn't Hashem's place to do that and
not man's?


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, May 24,2009 at 05:47 PM
Subject: HaRav David Bar-Hayim

B Lemkin <lemkinrealty2@...> > stated in v56 #57:

> HaRav David Bar-Hayim wrote a small piece on why he did not say birkath
> hachamah which can be found at . . .

Far be it from me to con this rav's positions, but he pasqens in a way that
is not in conformance with the main stream, to say the least. In past years
I have sent emails to his organization asking for clarifications.  The only
answer I ever received was essentially, "Come to his lectures." I did not.
(Yasher ko'ah to B Lemkin for restoring the dagesh to birkat.)

His organization says about him, "The Ba'al Nusach Eretz Yisrael, HaRav
David Bar-Hayim is a ground-breaking Torah scholar and transformational
thinker whose teachings may be found at WWW.MACHONSHILO.ORG. Rav Bar-Hayim
has courageously revived Nusach Eretz Yisrael which is the ancient nusach
tefillah of Eretz Yisrael, based on the Talmud Yerushalmi."

For example (from Wikipedia):

> Rabbi Bar Hayim has ruled that Jews in Israel, regardless of their origin,
> may eat kitniyot on Passover.
> He has also revived the ancient nusach tefillah of ancient Israel, "nusach
> eretz yisrael" which is based upon the Jerusalem Talmud. He has proposed
> the establishment of a *Minhag Eretz Yisrael*, religious customs and
> practices that reflect those of the pre-exile Jewish communities in Israel,
> rather than those of Babylon or Europe.

He has argued for the return of the primacy of the Jerusalem Talmud and
gives more weight to rulings contained therein.

He has proposed that when the first day of Sukkot falls on
Shabbat, Israeli Jews should follow the Mishna and Talmud Yerushalmi's
ruling and perform the lulav ritual.

On birkat hahama, this rav writes
> http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/askrav/46-tphilla-and-brakhoth/289-birkath-
> hachama,
> "the entire concept contradicts Hazal who worked with a lunar calendar."

I wonder how this jibes with Pitum Haqetoret ketzad (from the Bavli, Keritit
6a), which we recite every day. We say that the annual quantity of incense
weighed . . . 365 manim . . . corresponding to the number of days of the
solar year. Or specifically from the Yerushalmi, Nazir Pereq 1, Halakha 5,
". . . 365 keminyan yemot hahama."

* mailto:<laser@...> <laser@ieee.org>


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, May 26,2009 at 11:01 PM
Subject: Kadish after Krias Hatorah

On Sun, May 24, 2009, Tzvi R <TzviR@...> wrote:

Subject: Kadish after Krias Hatorah

> Minhag Yisroel Torah he. Several years ago I read a tsuvah regarding the
> Kadish after Krias Hatorah, the conclusion was that it belongs to the
> Baal Koreh

Harav Hamburger explains how it was transferred in many congregations from
the ba'al shacharit to the ba'al kore. Somebody pointed out to me off-line
that the original custom is still upheld in the Chabad siddur.

> As to a rabbi introducing new minhagim or changing old ones we have
> experienced this in our Shule. When the new rabbi was confronted with
> the question Why? his answer was, that is how the rabbi of his yeshiva
> had the minhag. Minhagim may not be changed by any new rabbi who is new
> to the congregation.

If everyone is agreeable, as would be the case for minor changes if the
reasons were compelling, there should be no problem. It is only where the
rabbi sets out to alter the whole ethos of the shul as in my case that
friction is bound to arise. That he should demand unconditional acceptance
of his absolute authority when he has not got hatarat hora'ah only adds to
the problem. When he then, in effect, tells a senior Dayan that he does not
accept his rulings if they are against his opinion, he merely adds fuel to
the flames of discord.

Someone whose actions do not command respect cannot demand respect from
others but invites precisely the opposite response.

Martin Stern


From: Chips <chips@...>
Date: Tue, May 26,2009 at 11:01 PM
Subject: Making a bracha on silent reading

after all these years I was unaware of anyone requiring that the planned
reading be out loud. perhaps this is why people say the Akeida out loud.

Easy enough to fix - next time I read mj before davening, i'll read
some of it out loud to cover that base.


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, May 26,2009 at 09:35 PM
Subject: Ordination

On another issue Martin keeps bringing up, - "The fact that, on his own
admission, he had never obtained hatarat hora'ah (formal rabbinic
ordination) may well explain his obvious sensitivity in such matters."

Forget about Ashkenaz customs, what synagogue/congregation hires a Rabbi
who basically isn't a Rabbi or is Martin referring to something else
other than a plain Yoreh Yoreh or even Yadin Yadin?



From: J Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Tue, May 26,2009 at 11:01 PM
Subject: Quote from Pastor Martin Niemoller

According to Dr. Michael Berenbaum:
There are many versions of this quote; this one is considered the most

In Germany, they came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the
trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me, and by that time, no one was left to speak up.

Pastor Martin Niemoller
German anti-Nazi theologian and Lutheran pastor,
imprisoned in Sachsenhausen and Dachau from 1937-1945


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Tue, May 26,2009 at 09:35 PM
Subject: Zman Shacharis/t on the plane

Alexander Seinfeld <seinfeld@...> writes:

What is the correct time to daven Shacharis/Shacharit on the plane from
> NY to Israel.

Check out
which allows one to calculate zemanim when travelling by airplane.
The inputs are:
(*) where you're leaving from,
(*) where you're going to,
(*) departure time,
(*) arrival time.
The website calculates the relevant zemanim. What's especially nice
is that it gives a table saying that if the plane takes off x minutes
late (where x is 15, 30, 45, etc.), then the zemanim are such and

Art Werschulz (8-{)}  "Metaphors be with you."  -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y?
Internet: agw STRUDEL comcast.net

From: Bill Coleman <wbcoleman@...>
Date: Tue, May 26,2009 at 09:35 PM
Subject: Zman Shacharis/t on the plane

Most transatlantic flights have a TV channel showing a simulation of the
flightpath, with altitude, speed, and -- relative to the point -- location.
With access to this information, you should be able to approximate local

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, May 26,2009 at 11:01 PM
Subject: Zman Shacharis/t on the plane

>From: Alexander Seinfeld <seinfeld@...>
<<What is the correct time to daven Shacharis/Shacharit on the plane from
NY to Israel.>>

Try this: http://www.chaitables.com/chai_air_eng.php



End of Volume 56 Issue 65