Volume 56 Number 66
        Produced: Sun, 31 May 2009 19:11:19 EDT

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Anyone know the details of Yeshivat Maharat
         [Mordechai Horowitz]
Baruch Hu U'varuch Sh'mo
         [Matthew Pearlman]
Der Yid Hakadosh
         [Yisrael Medad]
HaRav David Bar-Hayim
         [B Lemkin]
Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh
         [Matthew Pearlman]
         [Alan Rubin]
The way we pray for T'chiyat HaMaitim
         [David Ziants]
We don't Pasken - stam
         [Carl Singer]
Woman Rabbi
         [Orrin Tilevitz]


From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Wed, May 27,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Anyone know the details of Yeshivat Maharat

Pushing The Envelope: Rabbi Avi Weiss says his new school will train
Orthodox women to be full members of the rabbinic clergy. Rabbi Avi Weiss,
a leading advocate for a more liberal Orthodoxy, and Sara Hurwitz, a protege
of Weiss, are now taking inquiries and applications for Yeshivat Maharat, a
four-year program set to open this fall to train women as "full members of
the Rabbinic Clergy," according to an e-mail announcement. But they will
not, as of yet, be called rabbis.

"We're training women to be rabbis", Hurwitz told the Forward. "What they
will be called is something we're working out."

See http://forward.com/articles/106320/

I don't like to trust the secular Jewish media's reporting on this. Anyone
know the details of what Rabbi Weiss is doing with this program?


From: Matthew Pearlman <Matthew.Pearlman@...>
Date: Wed, May 27,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Baruch Hu U'varuch Sh'mo

>In congregations where one does say this after certain brochos, what is
the basis for the custom of abbreviating the phrase to "Shmoy"?

I think this is because the way that most people say berachot, there
would not be time to say it in full if you also wanted to hear the end
of the beracha. This is one of the reasons (in my view, the most
compelling reason) that I do not say Baruch Hu U'varuch Sh'mo.

Matthew Pearlman


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Wed, May 27,2009 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Der Yid Hakadosh

a. Buber is not quite an historical source. The book is a novelistic
treatment.  But check David Asaf's studies.

b. and be careful when writing "following God blindly".  Simcha Bunim
of Przysucha was blind in his later life, not to mention the earlier
Kabbalist Yitzchak Sagi-Nahor.



From: B Lemkin <lemkinrealty2@...>
Date: Wed, May 27,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: HaRav David Bar-Hayim

I have always experienced HaRav David Bar-Hayim as being extrememly
forthcoming with answers. It should be noted that the Rav is not
conventional but he is a monumental scholar and argues persuasively
for his approach. This can be readily be seen in an interview which
was recently conducted with him by another Torah scholar Rav Yair
Hoffmann at:

[URL shortened at http://bit.ly/] - http://bit.ly/QgQpf

Full / Original URL:

In the interview Rav Bar-Hayim is asked difficult, provocative
questions and has answers for every one of them.

B Lemkin


From: Matthew Pearlman <Matthew.Pearlman@...>
Date: Wed, May 27,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh

First - welcome back Avi - we missed you.

>From Avraham Walfish

> The Mishnah Berurah holds that the pesukim of
> kedushah must be recited along with ten others, and this includes the
> sheliach zibbur, and Rav Moshe clearly holds otherwise, preferring the
> sheliach zibbur to repeat the pasuk

As I understand the Biur Halacha, he says that he is unsure whether the
sheliach tzibbur should (a) say Kadosh along with the congregation,
because he also has to say it with a minyan; or (b) he should wait until
after the congregation has finished in order that he can fulfil the
obligation of those who are still in the middle of the amida and are
listening to his kedusha. The Biur Halacha does not appear to decide
between these choices. The second choice is exactly the reasoning of Rav
Moshe, although he does not cite the Biur Halacha.
Matthew Pearlman


From: Alan Rubin <alan@...>
Date: Wed, May 27,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Ordination

Yisrael Medad asked

> On another issue Martin keeps bringing up, - "The fact that, on his own
> admission, he had never obtained hatarat hora'ah (formal rabbinic
> ordination) may well explain his obvious sensitivity in such matters."

> Forget about Ashkenaz customs, what synagogue/congregation hires a Rabbi
> who basically isn't a Rabbi or is Martin referring to something else
> other than a plain Yoreh Yoreh or even Yadin Yadin?

This might relate to something that I was thinking about. I am not
familiar with Martin's community but some googling suggests that the
Rabbi is a former Rosh Kollel. This may well explain the lack of
formal ordination. Someone learning at a high level in a Kollel might
not see the formal studying of Shulchan Aruch for examination as
relevant to their learning.

The next question is whether this career path is suitable for a
community Rabbi. It might produce someone who can give an excellent,
high level shiur which may in itself attract a certain type of member
to the community but it is not the best grounding for pastoral care or
even for paskening shailos.

Speculating further, this also might relate to that tension which can
sometimes exist betwen community Rabbis and Roshei Yeshivos; where
graduates of yeshivos relate more to Rosh Yeshivos than they do to
their community Rabbis. Appointing a Rosh Kollel as community Rabbi
might solve that particular problem but such a Rabbi might not be the
ideal person to care for his commmunity.

Alan Rubin


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Wed, May 27,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: The way we pray for T'chiyat HaMaitim

Today (Wednesday 4th Sivan) being Shloshim for my mother Sarah bat
Yaakov, I would like this posting and any discussion that might arise
because of it to be l'iluy nishmata [the elevation of her soul].

During my interactions of the last month with different people, the
subject of praying for t'chiyat hamaitim [resurrection of the dead]
occasionally arose.

This prompted me to think about the issue, because this is one of the
fundamentals of our faith, and appears in our amida as part of the
central theme of the second b'racha.

The first three b'rachot of the amida are shevach [praise], the middle
b'rachot (during the week) are bakashot [requests] and the last three
hoda'a [thanks].

What puzzles me is that T'chiyat HaMaitim appears as a praise and not
as a bakasha, unlike the other and earlier stages of ge'ula

Look forward to receiving feedback from people on this list, on why it might be.

I also did my own little analysis of this, and would also like to hear
opinions on what I present, and whether these ideas are in chazal (and

Each of the first two b'rachot has two sub-themes:
A) Avot [forefathers] -> Geula [redemption]
B) Sustenance of Life -> Resurrection of Dead

The requests section of the shmoneh esreh is concerned about the "here
and now (and future)" of this world, which starts off with personal
sustenance issues and then continues to matters appertaining to
worldly redemption. (Then finishes off with the plea "sh'ma kolainu"
for everything.)

Avot is the beginning of our history and techiyat hametim is the end
of our history when the world will reach perfection. These ideas are
axiomatic. We do not need to request them because they are
respectively the start and the destination of our existence.

In the bakashot, we pray for what is in the middle.
Because of the avot, we can pray for ge'ula in the bakashot.
We also pray in the bakashot that we are granted what is needed for
our sustenance and it is from sustenance (spiritual as well as
physical), we have techiyat hamaitim.

Thus we do not have to mention Avot in our requests as we have already
given the praise that the avot is the source of our ge'ula, nor do we
have to mention techiyat hamaitim as we already gave praise that this
is the ultimate purpose in history and will come from the sustenance
of life that we do request.

David Ziants
Ma'ale Adumim, Israel


From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Mon, May 25,2009 at 10:25 AM
Subject: We don't Pasken - stam

To reprise something I wrote long ago - there is a component of jurisdiction
that needs to be considered when one is on either end of a psak.

The example I cited some time ago was when my wife called up Reb Shmuel
Kamenetsky, Shlita, with a "kitchen" shyleh.  (She had their home number on
speed dial as she and Rebetezen Kamenetsky learned together.)  He politely
referred her to the Rav of our shul.

It seems from my vantage point (and others may bolster or disagree with
this) that in an era of global communications*, many people  reach far and
wide for a psak with disregard for jurisdiction.

Another element to consider is how absolute is the psak.  Here, too, I will
cite an example -- but will leave the "answer" for another time.
Consider this a game of "What's the Psak?"  --  OK, pencils ready - May you
use an in sink strainer on Shabbos?  (I'm referring to the round metal mesh
or metal grate-like thing that keeps garbage from going down the kitchen

This is a 2-part question in reality -- (1) What's the Psak  and (2) What's
the process  for getting the Psak? -- How did you get this Psak?


P.S.  For those of you in the U.S. -- today is Memorial Day -- there are
plenty of Mogen Davids is American military cemeteries -- both in the US as
well as in the UK and France.


From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Wed, May 27,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Woman Rabbi

The following question was immediately prompted by an article in
Haaretz at http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1087780.html, although
I've thought about it before: just why can't a woman be an Orthodox
"rabbi"? Not that I at all support those who seem to be pushing the
idea; I'm curious whether there's any reason besides that it seems
never to have been done.  To focus the question, here is as far as
I've traveled on my undoubtedly mistaken train of thought (rakevet
hamachshava, as a teacher of mine once translated):

It can't be because women can't get "semicha", because "semicha" as
defined in the gemara died out during the Hadrianic persecutions. Our
ordination, whatever it's called, isn't "semicha".

It can't be because of some prohibition of "serara" (women taking
positions of communal leadership), which Rav Moshe Feinstein invokes,
deferring (although not apparently paskening like) Rambam, to prohibit
a women from giving a hechsher on food, although not from being a
mashgiach, for several reasons, including that often do not function
as communal leaders: they are often only teachers, in large shuls they
are often subservient to the board, and this prohibition wouldn't seem
to preclude their being assistant rabbis.

I've heard that it is because of some prohibition of "horaa", of
paskening halacha. The problem with this answer is increasingly,
especially in charedi Brooklyn on the outskirts of which I live, I run
into people with yeshiva ordination, who are called to the Torah as
"harav", and may even be religious functionaries, who refuse to pasken
halacha because, they say, they never learned how--and in fact they
can't answer typical qustions I'd pose to a shul rabbi. Is it
possible that modern Orthodoxy, which presumably would not produce
such rabbis, can't legitimately have a woman rabbi, but charedi
Orthodoxy could?

Another possible reason is that rabbis often act as edim, so perhaps
one should not put women in the position where they'd feel obligated
to fill a role that they cannot. The problem is that in Orthodoxy, it
is fairly rare for the rabbi to have to fill this role, because there
are generally other Orthodox, knowledgeable people around. It is not
at all rare in Conservative Judaism, leading to the conclusion that
perhaps women can legitimately be Orthodox rabbis but not Conservative

Where have I strayed?

Orrin Tilevitz
Brooklyn, NY


End of Volume 56 Issue 66