Volume 57 Number 73 
      Produced: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 07:40:19 EST

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

A liturgical conundrum (2)
    [Martin Stern  Akiva Miller]
An unfulfilled prophecy? 
    [Martin Stern]
Chazak chazak v'nizchakaik 
    [Jerry Weinberg]
elevators on Shabbat 
    [Steven Oppenheimer]
lashon hara on the list 
    [Irwin Weiss]
Nusach Eretz Yisrael 
    [Binyamin Lemkin]
Pronunciation of kamatz katan 
    [David Ziants]
Qualifications for sitting on a Bet Din 
    [Carl Singer]
    [Martin Stern]
Shabbat elevators, Refrigerators, etc etc. 
    [Yossi Ginzberg]
Whose siddur contains "shelo asani nachri"? 
    [Martin Stern]


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Jan 4,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: A liturgical conundrum

> Martin Stern wrote
>> Somebody asked me about the 'Keil erech apayim' said on Mondays and
>> Thursdays before taking out the Sefer Torah.

Chaim Tabasky <tabaskc@...> wrote:
> Rav Solovetchik pointed out that tachanunim are said as a continuation of
> tefillah, and that the requests in U'va l'Tzion are part of tachanunim and
> should be recited sitting down.

I believe that the correct procedure is to sit for Ashrei so it would seem
strange to stand for Lamnatzei'ach and U'va l'Tzion that follow it. As
regards U'va l'Tzion, it is essentially a collection of psukim which I think
were introduced by Chazal in order to strengthen the faith of the ordinary
people before they went out into the world. I wrote an article on this that
appeared in Le'ela magazine in '92 and is included in my book "A Time to
Speak" that my publisher (Devora Publishing) tells me will be available in
Israel in a week's time and elsewhere shortly thereafter.

> The placement of 'Keil erech apayim' doesn't disqualify it as tachanun, but
> I've never seen anyone say it sitting down.

I think that the minhag is to say it (or them) standing similar to the long
Vehu rachum also said on Mondays and Thursdays. In any case one is standing
for kaddish and will also stand when the Aron is opened, so it would be
strange to sit for such a short tefillah in between  mishum tircha
detzibbura [because of inconveniencing the congregation].

Martin Stern

From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Mon, Jan 4,2010 at 10:01 PM
Subject: A liturgical conundrum

Martin Stern wrote:
> Somebody asked me about the 'Keill erech apayim' said on
> Mondays and Thursdays before taking out the Sefer Torah.
> Apparently he had a travelling siddur which omitted it
> together with the order of reading the Torah, presumably
> because this would not be possible while travelling. His
> question was whether the 'Keill erech apayim' was really
> connected to it or not.

The siddurim that I used when I was younger all have a special section heading
about the Torah reading, and they place that heading AFTER Keil Erech Apayim
(i.e., just before Vayhi Binsoa Ha'aron). Because of this, I always presumed
that Keil Erech Apayim is NOT part of the Torah reading, and should be said even
when davening alone.

These siddurim include:
Rinat Yisrael
Otzar Hatefilos
Minchas Yerushalayim

A few years ago, I noticed that ArtScroll places this section heading BEFORE
Keil Erech Apayim, immediately after the half-Kaddish. This suggests that it is
part of the Torah reading service and should be said only when the Torah will
actually be read, i.e., with a minyan. But because of my past experience, I did
not take this seriously; I figured it was a typo or just some stylistic printing
of ArtScroll's.

But this morning, I noticed that the new Koren Siddur (published jointly by the
OU and UK Chief Rabbi Sacks) also has the heading *before* Keil Erech Apayim,
just like ArtScroll. So now I've begun to wonder if the minhag [custom] is
changing. Perhaps some long-lost authority has been rediscovered, and people are
beginning to follow his view that Keil Erech Apayim should be said only with a

Akiva Miller


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Jan 4,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: An unfulfilled prophecy?

> In Vol 57 # 70 Martin Stern  wrote:
>> At the beginning of Vayechi (Gen. 48,6), Ya'akov says "Progeny born to you
>> after them (Ephraim and Menasheh) shall be yours; they will be included
>> under the name of their brothers with regard to their inheritance."
>> AFAIK Yoseph did not have any other sons. Can anyone shed light on this?

Robert Israel <israel@...> wrote: 
> I don't think this is a prophecy at all.  He's not saying that Yoseph will
> have more children, just specifying the legal status in case Yoseph might
> have some.

Since Ya'akov had the gift of prophecy which was only taken away to prevent
his revealing the end of days, he should have known that Yoseph would not
have any further sons. So why did he refer to the legal status of sons who
would never be born?

Martin Stern


From: Jerry Weinberg <wjerryes@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 5,2010 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Chazak chazak v'nizchakaik

When we finish reading a chumash, the baal koreh repeats these three words after
 the congregation.  
Does the baal koreh need to look inside the Torah as he says the words
as if it is there? Could he close the sefer Torah and say these words?
Please reference sources rather than your own thoughts. Thanks

Jerry weinberg


From: Steven Oppenheimer <steven.oppenheimer@...>
Date: Mon, Jan 4,2010 at 11:01 PM
Subject: elevators on Shabbat

Ira Jacobson writes:
> There are other issues, such as lights illuminating (as happens on
> the control panel next to the motor, which the passengers don't even
> see) and sparking.

Rav Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo pp. 86-87) states " practically there isn't
even a rabbinic prohibition in the unintentional creation of sparks. "
The lights that illuminate on the control panel are not illuminated by the
passengers.  The elevator is pre-programmed before Shabbos.

Ira Jacobson writes:
> It seems to me that this depends on the difference in weight between
> the passengers and the counterweight, and whether the elevator is
> descending or ascending.

Numerous poskim have disagreed with the basic assertion of Rav Halperin that
a person is responsible for the actions caused by his mere weight (Shemirat
Shabbat Kehilchata 23:n. 140, Minchat Shlomo 91:10)

Furthermore, Rav Auerbach posits that since the elevator's descent occurs
after the passenger enters the elevator and only as a result of electric
current that flows after the passenger enters the elevator, the passenger
would be considered to be only "indirectly" causing the descent (gramma).

I am not championing riding in elevators on Shabbos.  I do not use them on
Shabbos.  However, I think it is important to note that there are very
respected poskim who have sanctioned their use, and, especially for people
who would suffer greatly if the use of an elevator (within the halachic
guidelines that have been set forth) were not available, they should be able
to rely on these poskim without being criticized.

Rav Unterman has written, "I have personally witnessed eminent Torah sages
entering an elevator and traveling to the floor for which a Gentile
passenger pushed the button, and they never raised the possibility of
their added weight posing a halachic problem." (Shevet MiYehuda p. 315; see
also Rav Auerbach, Shemirat Shabbat Kehichata, 23:49)

Finally, Rabbi Yisroel Rosen writes (translation mine), "HaRav Shlomo Zalman
Auerbach, zt"l, upon whom we rely for opening refrigerators on Shabbat, he
who permitted using an elevator on Shabbat...It is from his mouth that I
heard more than once an unequivocal halachic/instructive saying, "Enjoyment
of Shabbos is an obligation from the words of the Prophets and it pushes
aside stringencies. (Oneg Shabbat hu chiyuv midivrei Neviim vedocheh

Hanach Lahem LeYisroel, Im Lo Neviim Haim, Benei Neviim Haim. [Leave the Jews
be, if they are not prophets, they are the children of prophets - MOD]

Steven Oppenheimer, D.M.D.


From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 07:01 AM
Subject: lashon hara on the list

I would urge person who post on Mail Jewish to disagree without being
disagreeable.  If someone wants to post that an opinion that Irwin Weiss has
stated is wrong, or unsupportable, that is fine.  But, this should be done in a
way not to accuse the poster of evil intent or evilness itself, for I firmly
believe that we need more cohesion not less in our pursuit of Torah.
I would urge the moderator to moderate with this in mind.  Please read your
messages and think it out before you hit the magic "send" button.
As we say in the Amidah for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur (apologizing for my poor
Va'yeasu Chulam, Aguda Achat, La'asot R'tzoncha, B'levav Shalem
May we all come together as one community, to do the will of Hashem with a full
and complete heart.
And from our siddurim:
N'Tzor Leshoncha MeiRa, U'sfatecha M'daber Mirma.
Guard yourself from speaking evil, and your lips from speaking guile.
....Bakesh Shalom V'Radfeihu
Seek and pursue peace.

Irwin Weiss


From: Binyamin Lemkin <lemkinrealty2@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Nusach Eretz Yisrael

I recently glanced at a book by Prof. Ezra Fleischer on nusach eretz
yisrael which has been resurrected and is used in Eretz Yisrael as a
result of the efforts of Machon Shilo's HaRav David Bar-Hayim. From
looking at the table of contents I see that he delves into the
tefilloth for Shabbath and Regalim. Does he also have books which deal
with the daily tefilloth?

Binyamin Lemkin

Lemkin Realty & Investments-
The Address For Your Real Estate Needs
In Ramat Beth Shemesh


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Pronunciation of kamatz katan

One aspect of the pronunciation aspect of kamatz katan [=short kamatz] 
that I do not think has been mentioned on this list, and may be we can 
use "l'dan l'chaf z'chut" [= lit. "to weigh to the merit side of the 
balance" or idiomatically "to give the benefit of the doubt] who 
transliterate wrongly.

Artscroll is from America . When I hear Americans speak English I hear 
many of them turn their short "o" sounds to "a" sounds.
Thus we get "baaaastan" rather than "Boston". They "baaanded waill 
toooogaiva" rather than "bonded well together".
Maybe only Americans from certain parts of the USA speak like this  (in 
the same way as Mancunians pronounce English differently from 
Londoners). I cannot promise my above two 
American-English/British-English "transliteration" examples are fully 
correct, but I hope I put my point through.

Just an idea that I thought about when I discussed this with a neighbour 
a number of years ago. This explains why American Hebrew-English 
transliterations, which use Ashkenazi vowels, often render a kamatz 
gadol [=normal/long kamatz] as "aw". I realize, though, that my argument 
is logically flawed as that would mean neither "a" nor "o" present a 
correct transliteration of kamatz katan and neither not quite "aw" 
because this emphasises a long vowel. Any ideas of what vowel can be 
used for Americans...?

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
> Subject: Whose siddur contains "shelo asani nachri"?
> On Sun, Jan 3,2010, Marshall Potter <pottermr@...> wrote:
> > > Also note that I think the correct sefardic pronunciation of the 
> bracha is
> > > "shelo asani nochri" and not nachri as the vowel is a kamatz 
> katan.  Similarly
> > > in another of the brachot you will notice that the pronunciation 
> is "she-asa
> > > li kol tzorki", who has supplied me with all my needs, again the 
> kamatz is a
> > > kamatz katan.
> (David Ziants <dziants@...> made much the same point.)
> I wish someone would tell this to Artscroll who claim that their system of
> transliteration is based on Ashkenazi consonants and Sefardi vowels! 
> If they
> want to use the latter, they should get them right!
> Martin Stern


From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 5,2010 at 11:01 PM
Subject: Qualifications for sitting on a Bet Din

In halacha are there SPECIFIC restrictions regarding a familial relationship
between someone who sits on a Bet Din and a party to the Din Torah.    For
example, can a judge on a Bet Din hear a case involving, say, a cousin or



From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Jan 4,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Refrigerators

Martin Stern stated the following: 
>> One way round the problem is to put a time switch that turns the power on
>> and off every 15 minutes and a light (for those models that do not already
>> have a power indicator) in series with the refrigerator. One can then open
>> and shut the refrigerator when the power is disconnected.

Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...> wrote: 
> That solution was tried in Israel in the 1980s, I believe; not
> necessarily every 15 minutes, but some time scheme.  The result was
> lots of spoiled food, I heard.

I have been using this method for years (15 mins on / 15 mins off) with no
ill-effect. Perhaps the Israeli refrigerators are not as well insulated and
allow the interior to heat up more quickly.

Martin Stern


From: Yossi Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Mon, Jan 4,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Shabbat elevators, Refrigerators, etc etc.

Stuart Pilichovsky wrote:
> In 2010 it doesn't matter any longer if an opinion is put forward banning
> and prohibiting a shabbat elevator, opening a fridge on shabbat,
> discontinuing the use of an Erev or a shabbat clock. The community as a
> whole has already accepted it for years and years. It's already an
> established practice. . . . .

He is correct, in that the acceptance of the public is an essential part of
halachic formation. Example: Most would agree that the most decisive and
accepted Posek in the USA at the end of the last century was R. Moshe Feinstein,
yet while people tend to think his rulings were accepted by almost everyone,
they were not.  He banned using timers on shabbat for anything other than
lighting, and he banned veal production and recommended against eating it. 
Neither ruling has been accepted widely- in fact, urban legend has it that the
only building in America not using timers on the air-conditioning for shabbat is
his yeshiva, MTJ.

Yossi Ginzberg


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 02:01 AM
Subject: Whose siddur contains "shelo asani nachri"?

On Mon, Jan 4,2010, Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> wrote:
> That is the text of the British "Authorized Daily Prayer Book" ever since
> its first edition in 1890, and through the latest edition of 2007, by Chief
> Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sachs. I wouldn't be surprised if it was taken from
> Roedelheim.

Singer in his introduction to the British "Authorized Daily Prayer Book"
wrote that he based the text on the Seder Avodat Yisrael of Seligman Baer,
whose comments on this topic I summarised in Volume 57 Number 71. The
Roedelheim editions are based on Heidenheim's editions (he was the founder
of that printing house) which were also the basis of Baer's work.

Martin Stern


End of Volume 57 Issue 73