Volume 57 Number 74
Produced: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 08:03:28 EST
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Administrativia Prayer Concerning Women and related threads
[Binyomin G Segal]
An unfulfilled prophecy?
[Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Contemporary Composers of Prayers
[Yael Levine]
delayed brit milah timing
[Leah S. R. Gordon]
elevators on Shabbat
[Martin Stern]
Prayer Concerning Women who have been Murdered by their Spouses (2)
[Yael Levine Rabbi Meir Wise]
Pronunciation of kamatz katan
[Martin Stern]
Qualifications for sitting on a Bet Din (3)
[Martin Stern Elazar M. Teitz Ari Trachtenberg]
Shabbat elevators, Refrigerators, etc etc. (2)
[Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz Harry Weiss]
Spousal abuse
[Rabbi Meir Wise]
Summary, Prayer Concerning Women who have been Murdered by their Spous
[Ira L. Jacobson]
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From: Binyomin G Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Thu, Dec 24,2009 at 07:01 PM
Subject: Administrativia Prayer Concerning Women and related threads
The consensus among the moderation team is that these threads have reached the
end of their productive life at this time. As a result, after this issue, we
will be, in general, rejecting any new posts to these threads. This includes
posts that are in the submission queue.
Many of these ideas have been discussed in MJ before, and I have no doubt that
we will revisit these ideas again in the future. But for now, we are calling
these discussions over.
Respectfully,
Binyomin Segal
MJ Moderation Team
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From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: An unfulfilled prophecy?
Martin Stern wrote:
>>> At the beginning of Vayechi (Gen. 48,6), Ya'akov says "Progeny born to you
>>> after them (Ephraim and Menasheh) shall be yours; they will be included
>>> under the name of their brothers with regard to their inheritance."
>>>
>>> AFAIK Yoseph did not have any other sons. Can anyone shed light on this?
>
> Robert Israel <israel@...> wrote:
>> I don't think this is a prophecy at all. He's not saying that Yoseph will
>> have more children, just specifying the legal status in case Yoseph might
>> have some.
>
> Martin Stern
> Since Ya'akov had the gift of prophecy which was only taken away to prevent
> his revealing the end of days, he should have known that Yoseph would not
> have any further sons. So why did he refer to the legal status of sons who
> would never be born?
Prophecy would, I presume, only be given when it is needed. A prophet
is not allowed to reveal the prophecy *unless* Hashem specifically
tells him to do so (see discussions regarding the use of "leimor" to
Moshe rabbeinu). Based on the logic of what was happening, I would
consider that Yaakov would have been required to speak "b'derech
hatevah" (in a natural manner) on this matter. Also, since children
are a bracha, it would have been quite possible for something to
happen after Yaakov died so that Yoseph would merit more children,
even if *at the current time* he would not normally have been granted
more. Since Yaakov was giving Ephraim and Menashe a special gift, he
had to specify that this was a gift to them alone and would not be a
gift to Yoseph for all his (future) children.
I think that these reasons can explain why he would have made the
specification, even if he "knew" by Ruach Hakodesh (divine
inspiration) that there would be no more.
Sabba - ' " - Hillel
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<SabbaHillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
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From: Yael Levine <ylevine@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Contemporary Composers of Prayers
Contrary to what Orrin wrote, there are various contemporary people who composed
prayers and whose name is attached to them. I'll mention a few.
Rabbi Mark Dratch composed a prayer in Hebrew about abuse. It can be found at
the following link: http://www.jsafe.org/resources.htm
There is a prayer for agunot composed by Shelley List in the 1990's. Her name is
attached to this prayer.
There is the mi-she-berakh for agunot composed at the time by R. Mordechai
Tendler. His name was constantly attached to it.
Rav Amar composed a prayer for Gilad Shalit - it is attributed to him. Likewise,
R. Lau composed a mi she-berakh. His name is constantly attached.
Yael Levine
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From: Leah S. R. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 03:01 PM
Subject: delayed brit milah timing
We were recently blessed in our family to have a set of twins
(my niece and nephew), born at around 34 weeks gestational age. These twins
are on my husband's side of the family. They are doing pretty well, but
the boy is still in the NICU and having a few problems associated with being
so little. At a family gathering of my side of the family,
lots of yentas ;) got to talking about the timing of a delayed brit milah.
Three different opinions were quoted as having come from
various Orthodox rabbis; does anyone on M.J know the 'real' deal? (It's
not really up to me or my immediate family, so advice to me of CYLOR
would be mis-directed in this case.)
Opinion 1: The bris happens on the eighth day after the child is released
from the NICU, i.e. that release counts as his real "birth".
Opinion 2: Once the bris does not happen on the real eighth day, counting
days does not matter, and it is scheduled when convenient and when he
is healthy, "as soon as possible".
Opinion 3: Once the baby is able medically to be circumcised, the bris is
done immediately without delay.
...And a bonus question: suppose Orthodox relatives want to say
a mishaberach for the baby. If the baby didn't have a name yet,
would there be a way to do that? If the baby *does* have a name
(his parents did tell the name already in fact), is that name used,
even before a bris? Is it 'kosher' to do an official mishaberach for
a young/pre-named baby?
--Leah S. R. Gordon
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: elevators on Shabbat
Steven Oppenheimer <steven.oppenheimer@...> wrote:
> I am not championing riding in elevators on Shabbos. I do not use them on
> Shabbos. However, I think it is important to note that there are very
> respected poskim who have sanctioned their use, and, especially for people
> who would suffer greatly if the use of an elevator (within the halachic
> guidelines that have been set forth) were not available, they should be able
> to rely on these poskim without being criticized.
Very well expressed! These are precisely my feelings regarding the many
'grey areas' in halachic practice where something may be permitted in cases
of great need but those for whom it is not quite so pressing should take the
stricter option for themselves. Apart from the problem of elevators, this
applies to opening fridges and relying on an eiruv to carry on Shabbat or
the use of birth control measures. It is up to each individual, in
consultation with his or her rav, to decide whether he or she really has
such a great need as to qualify. It is not for others to condemn those who
avail themselves of a leniency nor, conversely, to condemn as "holier than
thou" those who do not.
Martin Stern
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From: Yael Levine <ylevine@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Prayer Concerning Women who have been Murdered by their Spouses
Rabbi Meir Wise asked me to define my articulation that the prayer is widespread
abroad. He lists many places where he has visited, but writes that he hasn't
heard the prayer recited in these places.
The prayer is recited once a year, on the Shabbat before November 25, which is
marked as the International Day for the Elimination of Violence towards women.
My prayer was composed in 2001, and began to be recited about two years later,
in the first year in small circles, and now in wide circles in Israel and North
America, and perhaps in some shuls elsewhere. Therefore, since R. Meir Wise
listed many shuls, this is not at all a possible situation.
As I've written time and again, the prayer is recited in many shuls in Israel
and is widespread abroad.
It is my general policy not to mention and not to specify the shuls, owing to
the halakhot of rekhilut [tale bearing --MOD] and lashon hara ["evil language"
--MOD]. I will not put these shuls under the criticism of anyone who doesn't
agree with their policy.
Yael Levine
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From: Rabbi Meir Wise <Meirhwise@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Prayer Concerning Women who have been Murdered by their Spouses
Mostly I mentioned the major synagogal bodies not synagogues I have
visited. I have conducted services in them every sabbath from 1977
continuing. Not only have I never heard the prayer recited, I have
never heard of the prayer or been sent a copy!
Synagogues are public places open to all and trying to hide behind the
laws of lashon hara and rechilut just doesn't work. Those laws do not
apply. I can only conclude that the prayer is not widespread.
Perhaps when Ms. Levine gets around to writing a prayer for male
victims of spousal abuse and the victims of infanticide of both
genders in a show of even-handedness, I will help her to make it
widespread.
Behokara
Rabbi Meir Wise
on the way to Jerusalem
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Pronunciation of kamatz katan
On Wed, Jan 6,2010, David Ziants <dziants@...>
> Artscroll is from America . When I hear Americans speak English I hear
> many of them turn their short "o" sounds to "a" sounds.
> Thus we get "baaaastan" rather than "Boston". They "baaanded waill
> toooogaiva" rather than "bonded well together".
Artscroll use an "a" for every kamatz even though according to sefardic
pronunciation a kamatz katan is pronounced as a short "o". If they had used
an "o" everywhere, one could accept David's argument but I think he has got
the problem back to front.
Incidentally, I have heard that one cannot use the same symbol for two
distinct sounds as an objection to the authenticity of the sefardic
pronunciation. Recently, I noticed that in Hungarian a short "a" which is
indicated by applying an acute accent is actually pronounced as a short "o".
Are these both examples of more general linguistic phenomenon?
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Qualifications for sitting on a Bet Din
Carl Singer <carl.singer@...> wrote:
> In halacha are there SPECIFIC restrictions regarding a familial relationship
> between someone who sits on a Bet Din and a party to the Din Torah. For
> example, can a judge on a Bet Din hear a case involving, say, a cousin or
> in-law?
Up to sheini besheini [first cousins] cannot act together as witnesses, nor
sit together on a Beit Din. Similarly one cannot sit on a Beit Din to judge
the other. For some purposes this is extended to shlishi beshlishi [second
cousins]. We allow this only for hatarat nedarim [annulment of vows] before
Rosh Hashanah because they do not constitute a proper Beit Din.
Martin Stern
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From: Elazar M. Teitz <remt@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Qualifications for sitting on a Bet Din
Carl Singer asked, "In halacha are there SPECIFIC restrictions regarding a
familial relationship between someone who sits on a Bet Din and a party to the
Din Torah. For example, can a judge on a Bet Din hear a case involving, say,
a cousin or in-law?"
The rule for judges is the same as that for witnesses: close relatives to a
party may not serve as judges. Father and son, grandfather and grandson,
brothers, uncle and nephew and,first cousins are disqualified; second cousins
are eligible. The spouse of a person who is disqualified is likewise
disqualified; thus, e.g., father-in-law and son-in-law are disqualified: since
the father cannot judge his daughter, he cannot judge her spouse.
Furthermore, just as witnesses are disqualified not only if they are
related to one of the parties, but even if they are related to each other, so
too with judges: two brothers, for example, cannot sit on the same court.
EMT
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From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 02:01 PM
Subject: Qualifications for sitting on a Bet Din
May a divorcee sit on a Bet Din?
-Ari
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Shabbat elevators, Refrigerators, etc etc.
> Stuart Pilichovsky wrote:
>> In 2010 it doesn't matter any longer if an opinion is put forward banning
>> and prohibiting a shabbat elevator, opening a fridge on shabbat,
>> discontinuing the use of an Erev or a shabbat clock. The community as a
>> whole has already accepted it for years and years. It's already an
>> established practice. . . . .
> From: Yossi Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
> He is correct, in that the acceptance of the public is an essential part of
> halachic formation. Example: Most would agree that the most decisive and
> accepted Posek in the USA at the end of the last century was R. Moshe Feinstein,
> yet while people tend to think his rulings were accepted by almost everyone,
> they were not. He banned using timers on shabbat for anything other than
> lighting, and he banned veal production and recommended against eating it.
> Neither ruling has been accepted widely- in fact, urban legend has it that the
> only building in America not using timers on the air-conditioning for shabbat is
> his yeshiva, MTJ.
At a shiur discussing this matter, we were told that part of the
restrictions (originally) on timers was the idea that it also depended
on what people were used to seeing. Thus, when they were first
invented and people would see lights going on and off, they would not
realize that it was a timer (mar'is ayin - appearance for the eye
literally). The analogy was given to non-dairy creamers at a catered
affair. Originally (when they were first developed), the creamer would
be served in the original container (marked parve), later the front
panel was cut off and propped against the container being used. Now it
is well established and it is assumed to be part of the hechsher.
Sabba - ' " - Hillel
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<SabbaHillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
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From: Harry Weiss <hjweiss@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 09:01 PM
Subject: Shabbat elevators, Refrigerators, etc etc.
From: Yossi Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
> in fact, urban legend has it that
> the
> only building in America not using timers on the air-conditioning for
> shabbat is
> his yeshiva, MTJ.
Many places do not use timers for air conditioners on Shabbat (or other
days). The question for that is not timers but thermostat. AFAIK for
heat everyone allows thermostat because of the rule that everyone has a
status of a sick person regarding the cold. For air I am not sure.
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From: Rabbi Meir Wise <Meirhwise@...>
Date: Mon, Jan 4,2010 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Spousal abuse
Being one of the two rabbis discussing agunim, I cannot let Russell
Hendel's posting go unchallenged. Again he takes a one-sided biased
approach to the whole subject and again lays all the blame at the feet
of the rabbis.
The words agun and agunim did not even appear in the Jewish Mail until
I raised them! They were not even on the horizon despite there being
more agunim than agunot!
I repeat one of either is too many.
Doesn't Mr Hendel think that the parents and teachers of young
marriageable people play any role or have any responsibilty?
Of course all rabbis want to help but they are not mr fixits when
things go wrong. I know of numerous cases of parents turning to rabbis
to prevent an intermarriage days before the event! Jewish education
starts in the womb!
We call all tell anecdotal stories of great rabbis. In fact Rabbi
Berel Wein tells the story of a poor rabbi/preacher who arrived in
israel with two suitcases. One contained the names of rabbis and the
other stories.
By Rav Moshe I take it that he means Rav Moshe Feinstein of blessed
memory one of the kindest and most caring rabbis who walked the planet
and who spent days and nights trying to help widows, orphans, agunot,
the sick and the poor.
A colleague of mine was standing next to Reb Moshe when in the small
hours of the morning he was on the phone to a recalcitrant husband
begging him to give his wife a get, promising him every blessing in
the Torah and telling the rabbi involved to offer him shishi (the
sixth aliya to the Torah) every week as an honour!
Kol tuv
Rabbi Meir Wise
Somewhere in Greater Tel Aviv
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From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 6,2010 at 02:01 AM
Subject: Summary, Prayer Concerning Women who have been Murdered by their Spous
After extensive off-list dialog with Yael Levine, who has composed a
"Prayer Concerning Women who have been Murdered by their Spouses," I
wish to summarize. But first one point that Ms. Levine wrote:
>Contrary to what he wrote, this is totally accepted in writing and
>in publications, and is not at all derogatory.
Contrary to Ms. Levine's implication, Mail-Jewish never includes such
a way of referring to a participant. At MJ we use the polite
convention of the New York Times and never refer to anyone here by
only his or her surname.
[This is not an MJ rule, just a generally utilized custom. --MOD]
Now to the summary. Ms. Levine has claimed that her prayer is
recited universally in many shuls (synagogues) throughout the world.
I have asked her repeatedly to give some statistics -- in how many
synagogues, how many people, where these synagogues are located.
I have estimated that there are two such synagogues throughout the
world, but Ms. Levine denies that.
After refusing continually to provide any data, Ms. Levine has finally explained
her reticence. She maintains that supplying such information would be rekhilut
[tale-bearing --MOD].
Since I have no other information, I shall continue to rely on my
estimate until I see data.
~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
IRA L. JACOBSON
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
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End of Volume 57 Issue 74
