Volume 6 Number 91

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Learning (in) Hebrew:
         [Yaakov Kayman]
Learning in Hebrew
         [Jeffrey Woolf]
Looking for Apartment in Jerusalem
         [Zvi Basser]
         [Aryeh Frimer]
Non Jewish Seder Attenders - Forbidden/Restricted?
         [Steve Bookman]
Reading Hebrew
         [Benjamin Svetitsky]
Toseftas shabbas
         [Naomi Werner]
hcal programs
         [Joseph Wetstein]


From: Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@...>
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 93 14:54:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Learning (in) Hebrew:

   As one who is fluent in Hebrew, and had furthermore earned a dirty
look from one of my son's Rashei Yeshiva, a rabbi also fluent in Hebrew,
for my remark that "there seems to be a large amount of people who
apparently regret the fact that the Torah was not written in Yiddish!",
I find it very odd that I should be one to give the rationale for many
right-wing ("Black Hat") yeshivas having an active antipathy to the
Hebrew language, but the fact is that their opposition to secularist
Zionists has, in many case, led to their throwing the baby out with the

Shabbat shalom, etc.

Yaakov K. (<yzkcu@...>)


From: Jeffrey Woolf <JRWOOLF@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 17:01:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Learning in Hebrew

I want to take the strongest position in support of Aryeh Frimer's
opinion on Hebrew. The state of Hebrew language studies in the yeshivot
and Day Schools (with some exception) is DEPLORABLE. The study of text
suffers. The capacity to understand Tanakh suffers. Grammar is nowhere
seen. Moreover there are rabbis who can't write a decent sentence and
most Halakhic and commentatorial works [in the US] are written in
English, with translation of texts censored and bowdlerized. May I
remind those who disasgree that NO JEWISH COMMUNITY which did not master
Hebrew has ever made any lasting contribution to Torah. Maimonides
deeply regretted (in a letter) that he'd ever written in Arabic (which
is at least a Hebrew cognate). The only reason his works survived is
becaudse they were translated BACK into Hebrew. Finally, it is
historically inaccurate that spoken Hebrew was not cultivated. There is
extensive evidence that when required dinei torah and yeshiva
discussions were conducte totally in Hebrew.

Jeffrey R. Woolf
Dept of Religious Studies
Yale University


From: <fishbane@...> (Zvi Basser)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 93 23:53:09 -0400
Subject: Looking for Apartment in Jerusalem

Does anyone know of an apt for rent in Jerusalem from the middle of
June to Sept? Please reply <Fishbane@...>

zvi basser


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 04:21:39 -0400
Subject: Modesty

   Several mail.Jewish fans have turned to me privately asking me as to
the whereabouts of copies on my Brother Dov's thesis on Tzniut/kisui
Se'ar (Laws of modesty/hair-covering for Women).  My brother, who is a
a lawyer in Jerusalem and Lives in Mitzpeh Ne'vo, Ma'aleh Adumim has
Kindly supplied the following Info:
   In the US, a copy is found in the YU central Library and perhaps a
photocopy in the Stern Library. They can be obtained via inter-Library
loan. Personal copies are also in the hands  Rabbis/Professors Sholom
Carmy, Chaim Soloveitchik and Saul Berman.
   In Israel, there should be three copies at the Sifriya Le'Umit at
Hebrew University as well as one at the Machon Le-Heker Mishpat Ivri,
Hebrew University and one at the Law Library at BarIlan. Copies can be
obtained through interlibrary loan.
   The Ph.D. thesis actually deals with Tzniut as grounds for Divorce
and was done at Hebrew U.
                   Happy Isru Hag/Maimuna


From: Steve Bookman <steveny@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 18:16:11 EST
Subject: Non Jewish Seder Attenders - Forbidden/Restricted?

Any comments and advice about whether and under what conditions a non
Jewish person can attend a seder would be much appreciated.

[While clearly no longer of relavence for this past Pesach, it is a
topic that comes up on a regular basis. Amazingly (to me at least) we do
not appear to have discussed it here in the mailing lists for a long
time. The only reference I found was to a similar question asked by Joe
Abeles in Vol 1 #12 and a short reply by Dovid Chechick in the following
mailing. That goes back to 1986, folks! Mod.]

Steve Bookman


From: Benjamin Svetitsky <FNBENJ@...>
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 14:32:33 -0400
Subject: Reading Hebrew

This discussion about the value of studying in Hebrew brings me to ask
the following:  How many people actually use the English Steinsaltz Talmud?
(ENGLISH, not Hebrew.)  I first learned of its publication several years
ago in Time Magazine.  The article stated that the Talmud has long been
inaccessible to most Jews because of its language, and thus its translation
will make it available to all.  I remember thinking that if language is
the only thing that makes the Talmud difficult, I should be having a much
easier time with Bava Kamma...

A couple of summers later, I ran across copies of the Steinsaltz Talmud in
English, expensively bound with gold edging, in a bookstore in Los Alamos,
New Mexico.  There are many people in Los Alamos whose intellect I respect,
but here, again, I really don't think that language has been the main
obstacle to their progress in Talmudic learning.  And sure enough, later
that summer I saw a set proudly displayed as "coffee table books" (elsewhere,
not in New Mexico).

So, does anybody actually learn from the English Steinsaltz?
(Disclaimer:  I am fond of the Hebrew Steinsaltz, I have even used it.)

I also know that the Artscroll English translation is quite popular.
Does it really help you get through a sugya?

Ben Svetitsky               <fnbenj@...>


From: <naomi@...> (Naomi Werner)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 23:48:06 -0400
Subject: Toseftas shabbas

>I rembember hearing about why we start Shabbas 18 minutes before and end
>42 minutes (shitah) after sun rise/set, and understand that it is d'arasya,
>but I can't remember the source (Ramban?).

>I would appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction.
>Yossi Wetstein

In the latest edition of the RJJ journal Rabbi Israel Schneider discusses
the Early Shabbos.  In it he answers your questions of Tosesfes Shabbas.
He says:

The obligation to add to shabbos

There is a fundamental difference between the Shabbat and the Jewish
Holidays.  The Shabbat, occuring with regularity every seven days is
divinely sanctified; the holidays, however are sanctified by Israel, by
means of the Sanhedrin which fixed the date for every new month.  This
distinction is reflected in the respective wordings of the Shabbat and
Yom Tov Shmoneh Esreh (Shabbos: mekadesh hashabbos Yom Tov: Mekadesh
Yisrael Vehazmanim).  However, even in regard to Shabat, there exists an
element of human sanctification.

The Talmud states (Rosh Hashana 9a)

"And you shall afflict your sould on the ninth of the month (Tishrei) in
the evening (Vayikra 23:22).  It is possible (to think that one should
fast) on the ninth.  The verse (threfore) states "in the evening"
(implying that the fast does not start the previous day).  If (only for
the verse) "in the evening" it is possible (to think that one should
begin to fast) after it gets dark.  The verse (therefore) states "on the
ninth."  How is it (possible, then, to reconcile these two verse)?  He
begins to fast while it is yet day"

The talmud establishes that there is a commandment to add from the
profane (weekday) to that which is sanctified (Yom Kippur).  The Talmud
proceeds to deduce that this commandment applies to the conclusion of
Yom Kippur just as it does to the beginning.  Just as one is obligated
to begin the fast while it is yet day (9th of Tishrei), one is
instructed to extend the fast into the night following Yom Kippur.
Furthermore, the Talmud deduces that this same obligation exists in
regards to Shabbat and Yom Tov as well.  One is obligated to bracket the
Shabbat with supplementary periods.  Thus, although the Shabbat is
Divinely ordained, it is incumbent upon every Jew to personally sanctify
it by extending it both beforehand and afterwards.  According to most
opinions, this obligation is biblical in nature."

The above is an excerpt of R' Israel Schneider's article in the 
Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society Number xxv (page 50-51)

Kol Tuv,

Naomi T. Werner


From: <jpw@...> (Joseph Wetstein)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 93 13:47:20 -0400
Subject: hcal programs

I am having considerable trouble getting the hcal/hdate and sun rise/set
programs to work. 

I would like to know if the original authors are available to help, or
perhaps someone else has had the trouble and can assist.

Essentially, I would like routines which allow quick conversion between
hebrew and english (and vice-versa) dates, and that compute 
sun rise and sun set times.

Thanks, and Moed Tov.

Yossi Wetstein


End of Volume 6 Issue 91