Volume 6 Number 92

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Denver Colorado
         [Morris Podolak]
Kinneret is Hametz She'ovar
         [Danny Skaist]
Kinneret is Hametz? (2)
         [Lon Eisenberg, Benjamin Svetitsky]
Korban Pesach in the desert
         [Benjamin Svetitsky]
Orthodox communities ?
         [Paul Nailand]
Question re Akhron shel Pesach
         [Janice Gelb]
Tosefet Shabbat
         [Zev Kesselman]


From: Morris Podolak <morris@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 03:26:43 -0400
Subject: Denver Colorado

I have a friend who will be spending two months in Denver Colorado.  He would
appreciate getting the names and phone numbers of members of the Jewish
community there.
P.S. you can send responses directly to me at <Morris@...>


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 04:59:56 -0400
Subject: Kinneret is Hametz She'ovar

>A ruling [psak] by R' Freund of the Eda Haridit just before PesaH has
>had many repurcussions here in Israel.  He said that since the fisherman
>used bread as bait during PesaH, the waters of the Kinneret are hametz.
>These are admixed or the main source of water throughout the country.

Then the kinneret is now hametz she'ovar alav hapesach [hametz that has been
owned by a Jew on Pesach] and is asur behana'a  [not permitted to have any
benefit from].

>He related that for many years he has personally disconnected his water
>from the main supply with the onset of PesaH and relied on water from
>the tanks on his roof during that period.

Since no new water will enter the kinneret till after succoth, how could he
use the water after pessach?



From: <eisenbrg@...> (Lon Eisenberg)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 01:54:06 -0400
Subject: Kinneret is Hametz?

This has always bothered me.  I believed in the past that the water from
the Kinenret took more than a week to reach us (since we live in the
center of the country), but my son corrected me and said that he learned
in school that it was more like 2 days.  If this is true, perhaps there
really is a problem.  I don't understand Rav Ovadiah's ruling about
nullification in 60, since this applies only before Pesah; if bread is
thrown into the Kinneret during Pesah, it would seem that the problem
really exists.  If this is true, I don't understand how we can view it
as (as Bob Werman quoted his LOR, R' David Avraham Rosenthal) "a gzira
that the tzibor cannot observe".  It would be similar to other rabbinic
prohibition (since from the Torah, we are punished only for eating more
than an olive's worth of hamez during Pesah).  I've never heard that
this prohibition (of eating even the minutest particle of hametz during
Pesah) didn't apply to water.

Perhaps, the treatment of the water (filtering?) can guarantee the
removal of even the minutest particles.  If not, perhaps we should all
fill containers before Pesah with enough drinking (and cooking) water to
last for the week.  Also, if this is really necessary, I would expect
that it would be the same in most places (not just Israel).

From: Benjamin Svetitsky <FNBENJ@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 15:02:06 -0400
Subject: Kinneret is Hametz?

Three points about the Kinneret "news": First, I remember that the
Bostoner Rebbe (in Boston) also fills up water tanks before Pesach.
Nonetheless, he did not counsel anyone else to follow suit.  Second, I
don't understand the statement attributed to R' Ovadiah Yosef that the
chametz is batel be-shishim.  I believe that chametz is batel be-shishim
only if it was mixed before Pesach; during Pesach, it is forbidden
be-mashehu -- in any amount.  Which brings me to the third point, that I
recall hearing in the name of the Chazon Ish that "even be-mashehu is a
shi'ur" -- even "any amount" means that there is a minimum.  Does anyone
have any details about the context and applicability of this statement
(assuming I haven't made it up)?

Otherwise, how far does this logic extend?  Does a bread crumb thrown
into the Hatzbani (in Lebanon!) make the entire National Carrier chametz
immediately?  Why does this not apply in galut as well?

Ben Svetitsky         <fnbenj@...>


From: Benjamin Svetitsky <FNBENJ@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 15:29:54 -0400
Subject: Korban Pesach in the desert

Charlie Abzug asks a good question.  Chazal tell us that the Korban
Pesach was not offered in the desert (v. commentaries on Num. 9) because
the generation born in the desert was uncircumcised (v. Josh. 5).
Why, then, couldn't the older generation, which was circumcised before
leaving Egypt, offer the Korban Pesach nevertheless?

The Radak (Josh. 5) discusses the whole thing at length and points out
that concerning the Korban Pesach it is written (Ex. 12:48) concerning
the stranger/convert "... let all his males be circumcised, and then he
may come near and bring it ...".  Thus the presence of any uncircumcised
males in the household render the entire family unfit for the Korban
Pesach.  I infer that B'nai Yisrael were all like converts at this time.
The presence of any children of the new, uncircumcised generation prevented
the entire nation from bringing the Korban Pesach, even the Levites who
did keep the covenant of circumcision in the desert in spite of the
difficulties (v. Rashi on Deut. 33:9).

Even though the Korban Pesach is brought by individuals, its main significance
is as a national offering, commemorating the formation of the nation and
its deliverance from Egypt.  The systematic abrogation of the brit milah,
even if the numbers are small, makes the Korban Pesach invalid.
As it says in the Haggadah, "va-omar lach be-damayich chayiy" -- live by
your blood (plural: the Korban Pesach and the Brit Milah).

The reasons for no circumcision in the desert are discussed in Yevamot 71a.
The last Tosafot on the page mentions that only the uncircumcised were
prevented from bringing offerings other than the Korban Pesach -- the other
offerings are individual matters, and disqualification is also on an
individual basis.

Ben Svetitsky   <fnbenj@...>


From: Paul Nailand <047NAIL@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 04:11:57 -0400
Subject: Orthodox communities ?

I have the opportunity to study at various institutions in the US.
However a large part of my decision relies on 'facilties' for want of a
better word for reasonably dati people. So can anyone give me info. on
the orthodox communities in

1. Seattle (University of Washington)
2. Philadelphia (University of Pennsylvannia)
3. Rochester, MN (Mayo Graduate School)
4. Buffalo (SUNY, Buffalo)
5. St. Louis (Washington University)

Much obliged and thankyou
Paul Nailand


From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 13:06:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Question re Akhron shel Pesach

Freda Birnbaum in Vol. 6 #89 says:

>There is a tradition that the last days of Pesach herald the ultimate
>Redemption.  We have heard that some even celebrate a "Seudas Moshiach"
>toward the end of Yom Akhron (last day of Pesach) as a Neilas Hachag
>(closing of the festival).  We are looking for detailed sources and
>traditions regarding the messianic nature of the last part of the

When I was living in Israel in 1979, a wave of rumors swept the
religious community that the Mashiach was coming on shvi'i shel Pesach.
A friend studying at Michlala (a religious girls school in Jerusalem)
told me that some of the parents of her classmates were cooking extra
food and putting in extra beds for the numerous relatives they were
expecting due to the imminent tchiyat hametim!

Hoping your chag was less crowded,
Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
<janiceg@...>   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 


From: Zev Kesselman <ZEV%<HADASSAH@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 09:04 JST
Subject: Tosefet Shabbat

>I rembember hearing about why we start Shabbas 18 minutes before and end
>42 minutes (shitah) after sun rise/set, and understand that it is d'arasya,
>but I can't remember the source (Ramban?).

	Sources for Tosefet Shabbat:  Mishna Breura at Orach Chayim 261
should give you hours of research material on: from when, how, and
according to whom, to calculate "ben-hashmashot" (the time between
"certainly not Shabbat" and "certainly Shabbat").  Much of the discussion
revolves on how long does it take to walk 3/4 of a "mil" (talmudic length

	Old-timers on this list may remember my querying about the origin
of the universal constant "18" a long time ago.  Just before Pesach, I came
across a written (if indirect) reference to this, in a new sefer regarding
Hilchot Leil Haseder, of all things! ("Mikraei Kodesh" by R. Moshe Harari).
Some of the salient points:

	1)  Eighteen is just one of the quantum values of this constant,
used for determining candle-lighting time.  In Israel, some customary values
are 21 (Tel-Aviv and Bnei-Brak), 30 (Haifa), and 40 (Jerusalem).

	2)  "Sefer Hayeraim" applies the 3/4 "mil" hike to the time before
sunset.  If it takes 24 minutes to walk a "mil", voila, you get the value
18;  however, some hold that it takes 18, yielding a value of 13.5 minutes.

	3)  If your Chanukah candle goes out on erev Shabbes:  until how long
before sunset can you relight?  The sefer cites some Israeli poskim on this:
R. Sraya Deblitsky - about 20 min.; R. S. Meshash and R. M. Eliyahu - about
10 minutes.

                                        Zev Kesselman


End of Volume 6 Issue 92