Volume 6 Number 93

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Baruch Shepatrani
         [Sherman Rosenfeld]
Chametz in the Kinneret (5)
         [Frank Silbermann, Zvi Basser, Zimbalist David, Steve Edell,
Lon Eisenberg]
Seudat Acharon Shel Pesach
         [Anthony Fiorino]
         [Shelomoh S Zieniuk]


From: Sherman Rosenfeld <NYSHER@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 10:15:28 -0400
Subject: Baruch Shepatrani

I have a number of questions concerning the practice of the father of a
bar mitzvah saying (after his son has been officially initiated as a ben
mitzvah): "Blessed art Thou who has released me from the
responsibility/punishment (onsho) of this one (i.e., my son)."  What is
the source of this "blessing"?  What is its halachik status?  Is it a
requirement or a custom?  Is it exclusively an Ashkenazic practice or do
Sephardim say it as well? Finally (or primarily), how should one best
understand what's the meaning behind this practice?  I'm sure these are
issues which have been thoroughly discussed elsewhere. So perhaps
someone has some good references and/or answers.

      Sherman Rosenfeld
      Weizmann Institute of Science


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 08:18:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Chametz in the Kinneret

An ongoing discussion debates whether Kinneret is Hametz?  because some
people fish there during Pesach with bread as bait.  It seems to me that
the intention is to catch fish, not to change the water.  So why can't
any trace Chomitz simply be nullified by declaring it null and void as
the dust of the earth?

If Halacha cannot permit this, then what would we do if an enemy
exploded a missile filled with flour over our heads?  Would we be asked
to wear scuba tanks to avoid breathing the air?  What about moisture
from the air that might condense onto our dishes?

If undetectable trace _can_ be nullified as the dust of the earth, then
what is all the fuss about?

Frank Silbermann	
Tulane University	New Orleans, Louisiana USA

From: <fishbane@...> (Zvi Basser)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 10:40:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Chametz in the Kinneret

The Mishna counsels that people may break up their
bread and cast the crumbs upon the sea. Rashi holds that all water runs
underneath the surface of the earth in cycles and all waters are
joined. So why didnt he think all water was hametz on pesach? Indeed
water has bugs in it too all year. The holocho should be what you see
is hametz or bugs etc-- what you dont see is not. Otherwise kinneret
is the same problem as any water anywhere in the world-- great lakes
should be assur too yet no one I know of has suggested we dont drink
water here in Toronto.--  It sounds to me that this is humra bealma.--
a stringency-- indeed Rabbi Karo, the mechaber tells us not to laugh
at women who scrub walls as a pre-pesach custom, implying there are
times to laugh.  He says there is a source for this custom in the
yerushalmi. Where is the source to forbid water in lakes?

Zvi Basser

From: Zimbalist David <mdzimbal@emubus>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 10:48:05 -0400
Subject: RE: Chametz in the Kinneret

>Then the kinneret is now hametz she'ovar alav hapesach [hametz that has been
>owned by a Jew on Pesach] and is asur behana'a  [not permitted to have any
>benefit from].

Hametz sh'avor alav hapesach is only the case when it is owned by a Jew
over Pesach.  I would venture to guess that any Hametz in the Kinneret
on Pesach has the status of Hefkar and therefore would not fall into the
category of Hametz she'avor alav hapesach.

Alternatively, the halachah of Batel b'shishim (1 in 60) only occurs if
you take possesion of the material before pesach. (Note: this is the
case with much of the Vitamin D enhanced milk in the U.S.)  If we
consider the community (the state - secular or halchic) as having the
ability to acquire the waters of the Kinneret before pesach, then all
the hametz is batel b'shishim.

I realize that the two reasonings contradict each other, but either
might be used as a basis for permitting the use of water on and after

David Zimbalist

From: <edell@...> (Steve Edell)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 08:14:06 -0400
Subject: Chametz in the Kinneret

First, all water from the Kinneret is aerated (thrown in the air), as
well as filtered.  Some of the water (for instance, water that gets to
Jerusalem) is florinated as well (I'm not sure if Jerusalem water comes
directly from the Kinneret, however).

Also, as far as a 'gzara that the tzibor cannot observe', there are 
historical examples of this happening - can anyone out there give us info
on the fact that when potatoes were discovered, Rabbis tried to say that
they could _not_ be used on Pesach, but the European community rebelled
to such an extent that the Rabbis rescinded the ruling??

Steven Edell, Computer Manager    Internet:  <edell@...>
United Israel Appeal, Inc
(United Israel Office)            Voice:  972-2-255513
Jerusalem, Israel                 Fax  :  972-2-247261

From: <eisenbrg@...> (Lon Eisenberg)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 07:55:17 -0400
Subject: Chametz in the Kinneret

Danny Skaist wrote:
>Then the kinneret is now hametz she'ovar alav hapesach [hametz that has been
>owned by a Jew on Pesach] and is asur behana'a  [not permitted to have any
>benefit from].

Although, as I wrote, there may be a problem as far as drinking the water
from the Kinneret during Pesah, I don't think that any item (including food)
with minute traces of hamez ("ta'arovet") comes under any prohibition of
ownership or deriving benefit; it is only prohibited to _eat_ (drink) it.
Therefore, I don't believe the problem cited by Danny exists.


From: Anthony Fiorino <fiorino@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 12:25:40 -0400
Subject: Seudat Acharon Shel Pesach

> We have heard that some even celebrate a "Seudas Moshiach"
> toward the end of Yom Akhron (last day of Pesach) as a Neilas Hachag
> (closing of the festival).  We are looking for detailed sources and
> traditions regarding the messianic nature of the last part of the
> festival.

I attended such a seuda this year, although there was not a particular
messianic character to the meal.  I was in Boston for the second days
and I daven at the Talner shul, the shul of Rav Twersky, son-in-law of
the Rav, z'tzal.  The tradition in that shul, and for the Chernobyl
chassidim in general, is to have such a seuda at which the story of the
baal shem tov is told.  The reason is that there is a fantastic story
about the baal shem tov miraculaously arriving in eretz yisrael on
acharon shel pesach.  After the story is narrated, there is singing and

At the seuda, Rav Lichtenstein, who was also there for yontif, mentioned
that there are some who hold that it is a mitzvah to eat matzah
throughout pesach; thus, this meal is the last opportunity to fulfill
this mitzvah.

Other reasons for the seuda were given, but these are the only two which
stuck in my mind.

Eitan Fiorino


From: Shelomoh S Zieniuk <27916070@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 10:44:41 -0400

Mincha, Tish(a Yamim La(Omer, Yom Chamishi, Y"D b'Nisan ThShN"G;
Universita Varsha b'Varsha, Galut HaMara Meod.

Those of You visiting The Ghetto City these days might be
interested in the following events timetable  (abridged):
19:00, Fri., 16th April, '93: Kabbalat Shabbat service at the Nozyk Shul
                                (6 Twarda Street, Warsaw -- a 10 mins'
                                walk from the Palace of Science &
                                Culture: the tallest building in the
                                city's centre, & the same distance from
                                the Central Railway Station).
09:30, Sat., 17th April,  " : Shacharit L'Shabbat service, Nozyk Shul.
11:30, Sun., 18th April,  " : The Fallen Ones Memorial service, Nozyk Shul.
13:00, Sun., 18th April,  " : Memorial Ceremony at the Jewish Cemetery
                                (Okopowa Street, Warsaw).
18:00, Sun., 18th April,  " : Official Arts Programme at the Congress Hall
                                (a building adjacent to the Palace of
                                Science & Culture, which -- like the Shul
                                -- is located a quarter's walk from most of
                                downtown hotels: Bristol, Forum, Victoria,
                                Europejski, Holiday Inn, Marriott).
12:00, Mon., 19th April,  " : Laying of Wreaths at the Ghetto Heros

Shabbat Shalom UL'Hitraot B'Varsha!
Shelomoh*Slawek*ZIENIUK, student, Univ. of Warsaw (Dept. of Hebrew), Warsaw.
ani shalom v'khi adaber           hema lamilchama: -- Tehillim Q"K:Z'
Guest e-mail account: <27916070@...>


End of Volume 6 Issue 93