Volume 66 Number 16 
      Produced: Mon, 21 Nov 22 15:36:11 -0500

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

A 14 Point Checklist for Those Watching Someone in Hospital 
    [Martin Stern]
Hashoel shelo mida'at - borrowing? 
    [Steven Oppenheimer]
Inaudible Mi shebairachs 
    [Yisrael Medad]
Mashiv haru'ach 
    [Haim Snyder]
Saying Kaddish (3)
    [Joel Rich  Chana Luntz  Martin Stern]
Two days Yom Tov 
    [Menashe Elyashiv]


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, Nov 18,2022 at 07:17 AM
Subject: A 14 Point Checklist for Those Watching Someone in Hospital

Having a relative in hospital can often be a matter of pikuach nefesh but also
possibly cause a chillul Hashem. The basic question is "How should we behave in
situations where non-Jews might resent our 'interference'? As a springboard we
might like to consider what Rabbi Yair Hoffman wrote on VINnews (18 November '22):

> The leading cause of death in this country is medical error.  And, this author 
> has been told, we, the religious Jewish family members, are the leading “pain 
> in the neck” ethnicity at hospitals, because many a frum patient has relatives 
> that stay at the hospital round-the-clock.  ...  What follows is a checklist 
> of what the family members should watch out for.
> There are three categories in this checklist.  ...  Things to Make Sure 
> They Do, Things to Make Sure They Don’t Do, Things You Should Do ...

For full details see:

> https://vinnews.com/2022/11/17/zaidy-is-in-the-hospital-a-14-point-checklist-f
> or-those-watching-him/

How do other members feel we should behave in such circumstances?

Martin Stern


From: Steven Oppenheimer <steven.oppenheimer@...>
Date: Wed, Nov 16,2022 at 04:17 PM
Subject: Hashoel shelo mida'at - borrowing?

In answer to Joel Rich (MJ 66#15):

The Shulchan Aruch writes that one may borrow a persons tallit without his
permission (O.H. 14:4). Mishnah Berurah explains that a person is pleased that a
mitzvah is performed with his object when it does not incur him any loss.

Nowadays, however, there are many people who do mind when someone else uses
their tallit. Ben Ish Chai includes himself as someone who would not want
someone to use his tallit or tefillin. (Ben Ish Chai, Lech Lecha 6) This applies
especially regarding a new tallit and/or a clean tallit, in which case we see
that people are particular. Furthermore, many people do not want someone
sweating into or dirtying their tallit and for these and other reasons do not
give permission for others to use their tallit or tefillin.

If one examines the source of this law, one finds that the Smak wrote that only
an unfolded tallit may be used.  A folded tallit requires express permission. 
Unless one knows for sure that the owner doesn't mind, one may not use the
tallit and, should he do so, it may be considered stealing since one who borrows
without permission is considered a thief  (Aruch Hashulchan 14:11,12).  If that
is the case, one might say that mitzvah habaah beaveira eina nechshevet
lemitzvah [a mitzvah that is performed by doing a transgression is not
considered a mitzvah].

If one is already wearing a tallit katan, he may not borrow the tallit gadol
without permission (Mekor Chaim (Bachrach) 14:4).
Steven Oppenheimer, D.M.D.

From: Yisrael Medad  <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Wed, Nov 16,2022 at 11:17 AM
Subject: Inaudible Mi shebairachs

Orrin Tilevitz asserts (MJ 66#15):

> The whole purpose of the mi sheberach for sick people is to announce the name
> so that the community may pray for him or her.

But is it?

A parallel example, the yahrzeit Mi Sheberah said, in the Ashkenaz custom, at
Shabbat Mincha before the yahrzeit, is said in a low tone. Is it not similar?
Yisrael Medad


From: Haim Snyder <haimsny@...>
Date: Wed, Nov 16,2022 at 09:17 AM
Subject: Mashiv haru'ach

In response to Chana Luntz (MJ 66#15):

To be honest about it, I can understand why a nusach Ashkenz shul in galut would
have a sign "Mashiv Haru'ach" from Shmini Atzeret until the first day of Pesach,
since these are the first 2 words inserted after "rav l'hoshiah" only during
that part of the year.

What I don't understand is that same sign in a nusach Ashkenaz shul in Israel,
which I have seen.

Since those shuls have a sign which says "Morid Hatal" for the summer, then, in
my opinion, for the winter they should either have a sign which says "Mashiv
haru'ach umorid hagashem" or, to save money, just "Morid Hagashem" which is the
case in the shul in which I daven in Petah Tikva.


Haim Shalom Snyder

Petah Tikva


From: Joel Rich <joelirarich@...>
Date: Wed, Nov 16,2022 at 08:17 AM
Subject: Saying Kaddish

Carl Singer wrote (MJ 66#15):

> Is it  
> (1) commendable,  
> (2) permissible or 
> (3) prohibited      
> 1- grandparent
> 2- great-grandparent
> 3- cousin
> 4- friend
> 5- stranger
> [a] when there is no-one else available to say kaddish
> [b] when others are available to say kaddish?
> I thought this was obvious but apparently not so.

I would add 

(4) Efficacious

As I understand it, "it can't hurt" but the source text (Machzor Vitri 144)
refers to a blood descendent (else why didn't Rabbi Akiva say the kaddish himself?)

Joel Rich

From: Chana Luntz <Chana@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 21,2022 at 07:17 AM
Subject: Saying Kaddish

In response to Carl Singer (MJ 66#15):

No, it is not obvious.

First of all, you need to ascertain whether the minyan in which you are saying
kaddish is either a Sephardi or an Ashkenazi minyan that has adopted the
Sephardi custom of all mourners saying kaddish together.  If a Sephardi minyan
or an Ashkenazi one that has adopted this practice (the majority have), there is
arguably relatively little objection (unless the person has parents who are
alive and are particular [makpid] about it, or the real mourners object).

However under the old Ashkenazi custom that only one person could say the
mourner's kaddish at any time, it was difficult to find enough slots for all the
real mourners and it would be completely inappropriate to multiply the numbers
beyond the core requirements.  Hence the Rema writes (Yore Deah siman 376 si'if 4):

" And there is no place for this [the mourner's] kaddish except for his father
or mother only, but not on the other relatives (in the Or Zarua). And if there
is not in the synagogue a mourner for his father or his mother, one who does not
have a father or a mother says that kaddish, for the sake of all the dead of
Israel (there).  And there are places that the custom is that the rest of the
relatives say kaddish on their relatives when there are not mourners for their
father or their mother.  And there are places that even when there are mourners
for their father or their mother, the other relatives say, but they make a
compromise between them that they do not say as many kaddishim as the mourners
on the father or the mother (Meharik). And we go in all of this after the
custom, so long as the custom is established in that city."

Note that when the Rema refers to the rest of the relatives, he is referring
to those who are formally mourners - e.g. brothers, whereas your list is made
up exclusively of those who are not considered to be one of the seven mourners.

Now even within your list, one does stand out as different - namely grandparent.
The Beir Heitev rules in Orech Chaim siman 132 si'if 5 that grandsons can say
kaddish (although the other mourners say two kaddishim to their one) and while
he brings the Knesset Yechezkel as saying that is only grandsons from the
father's side the Beir Heitev himself disagrees.  I doubt
that great-grandparents occurred very often in those days, but the same logic
could well be applied to that case. 

Other than that, the most frequently discussed case was that of someone (who
could be a cousin, friend or stranger) who was hired to say kaddish (something
already mentioned in the Beit Yosef in Yoreh Deah siman 403) and there seems to
be a general acceptance that such a person has a portion within the allocation
of the kaddishim (although the Chatam Sofer disagrees - see Chatam Sofer Chelek
2 (Yoreh Deah siman 345).  But also note in the case of the
cousin/friend/stranger that the Magen Avraham in siman 132 si'if katan 2 holds
that it is better for someone to be hired to say kaddish than to say it for free
(a view that could be applied even where the kaddish sayer is saying it at a
minyan where all mourners say kaddish together).

And the case of a person being hired was almost inevitably a situation of Carl's
case (a), i.e. no one else available to say kaddish (although that was not
infrequently because the son was not in a place where he could say kaddish as
well as the more obvious case where he did not exist).  In a situation where
there are indeed others available to say kaddish - even in a minyan where
everybody says it together, it does feel inappropriate for
cousin/friend/stranger to be saying kaddish assuming there are others saying
kaddish in that place so they are not in fact saying kaddish "for all the dead
of Israel" as the Rema puts it, and there are also others saying kaddish
elsewhere on behalf of that particular deceased.  Indeed it could be seen on
some level as cheapening the saying of kaddish if you allow a general free for
all (everybody knows somebody who has died recently).  But since most of the
discussion in the poskim is centred on, and in the context of, the old Ashkenazi
custom, I am not aware of the question being addressed directly in the context
of a minyan where all kaddishim are said together. 



From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 21,2022 at 01:17 PM
Subject: Saying Kaddish

In response to Carl Singer (MJ 66#15):

As a follower of the old Ashkenazi custom that each kaddish is said by only one
person, I would say that nobody should say a kaddish for anyone unless there is
nobody else present who is in aveilut for, or observing the yahrzeit of, their
father or mother. In that case, anybody can say the Aleinu kaddish and, in fact,
someone, usually the sheliach tzibbur, should do so so that it should not be
omitted. We have a general principle of "ein marbim bekaddeishim [we do not
multiply the number of kaddeishim said]" so they should restrict themselves to
this one kaddish only.

For those congregations who adopted the custom of many people saying kaddish
together, there would seem to be no problem with anybody who wishes saying it
together with real aveilim. However they should follow the Sephardi custom of
everyone saying it word for word in unison so that everyone can hear it
distinctly and respond "Amein, yehei shemeih rabba ..." This tends not to be the
case in most Ashkenazi minyanim in which several people say kaddish - "trei
kalei lo mishtamei! [when two people speak at the same time neither can be
heard!]". The result is that the kaddish yatom [orphans' kaddish] itself becomes
the orphan who is not heard.

Martin Stern


From: Menashe Elyashiv <menely2@...>
Date: Wed, Nov 16,2022 at 01:17 PM
Subject: Two days Yom Tov

Chana Luntz wrote (MJ 66#15):
> Menashe Elyashiv  writes (MJ 66#14):
>> Two days in temple time?? The two days started at the end of the Tannaim
>> period, when the Cutim ruined the "torch system", that sent the right date of
>> Rosh Chodesh to Bavel.
> On what basis does he conclude that the Cutim ruined the torch system at the
> end of Tannaim period?
My source is Yerushalmi Rosh Hashanah 58a: Rebbi (R. Yehuda Hanasi) canceled the


End of Volume 66 Issue 16