Volume 9 Number 23
                       Produced: Tue Sep 14 19:21:29 1993

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Books on building an Eruv
         [Bill Rose]
Dinosaurs and Kashrut (2)
         [Tom Rosenfeld, Barry Kingsbury]
King of the Jews
         [Gary Davis]
Moshiach & Peace Agreement (2)
         [Sam Goldish, Michael Kramer]
Peace Agreement
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
The Mideast Peace Plan
         [Barry H. Rodin]


From: mljewish (Avi Feldblum)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 19:09:35 -0400
Subject: Administrivia

Hello All,

I'm using some of this time before Rosh Hashana to clear (at least some
of) the slate on the mail-jewish backlog and enter the New Year with a
good chance of keeping up with things. I think I'll head home in about
another half hour or so and start cooking for Yom Tov. I would like to
take this opportunity to thank all those of you who have sent me email
and paper mail messages of chizuk (encouragement) over the last year.
Even if I do not get a chance to reply to you, I definitely appreciate
and draw strength from it. I would also like to thank all those of you
who sent wishes of Mazal and bracha on my son Eli's Bar Mitzva.

I also know that in this situation, it is not possible that I have not
offended or hurt some of you over the last year. Since as we all know,
Hashem requires of us to obtain forgiveness from our fellow Jew for any
transgression "bein adam le'chavero", between a Jew and his/her fellow
Jew, before one can ask Hashem for forgiveness (any transgression "bein
adam le'chavero" is also "bein adam le'makom" ). As such, I ask here for
mechila - forgiveness from any of you against whom I have transgressed.
While I cannot think of anyone from the list who needs ask mechila from
me, if there was anything that happened I am hereby fully mochel all
such persons.

I would like to thank Arnie Lustiger for all the hard work he has put in
to making a second of the Rav's Teshuva drashot available to us to read
and gain inspiration from during the ten days of repentance. I will be
putting it up for email and ftp access either later this evening or
sometime tomorrow. I will also at that time write up an explanation of
how to retrieve the article.

In this issue (which is part of what got me to stop putting the issues
together and write my note to you all) we have several submissions that
deal with two (possibly related) topics that as one of the posters
mention should fall under the rubric of this mailing list. I have
clearly included them, but I also want to make clear what my hesitations
are. The topics are the current agreements between Israel and the PLO
and the topic of Moshiach. I fully agree that these are very important,
nay crucial, topics for us as Jews. My concern is with total overload of
the mailing list and with the potential for these issues to lead to
flame replies. I do not want 800+ messages saying the accords are good
or the accords are bad. I suspect that many of us have opinions, and
they will not agree. I also do not want to have a discussion here as to
whether any given individual is the Moshiach or not. However, I am
willing to give these topics a try, but warn in advance that if I do not
feel I can manage them, I will cut off the topic. 

A Shana Tovah to all of you, and may this coming year be that of the
final Geulah!

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: Bill Rose <E7M2ROS@...>
Date: 14 Sep 1993 18:29:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Books on building an Eruv

	Today's (9/14/93) mail-jewish had a request concerning books on
building an Eruv.  A friend of mine is the president of the ERUV of Baltimore
and was instrumental in building it.  He has published a book on the subject.
The book costs $15 including postage and handling (in the USA) and is available
from the author.  The book has been used successfully in building a number of
eruvim and is approved by Rav Heinneman and recommended by Rav Eider.
The author may be reached by mail:
	Dr. Bert Miller
	6207 Wallis Ave
	Baltimore, MD 21215
	Telephone: (410) 358-6068
					Bill Rose


From: <tom@...> (Tom Rosenfeld)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 04:25:04 -0400
Subject: RE: Dinosaurs and Kashrut

In regards to pictures of dinosaurs on dairy products Bob Werman write:

> As a Professor in a Biology Institute (at the Hebrew University) I teach
> evolution; as a religious Jew I daven and associate with Haredim.
> I object to the picture of a reptile, definitely not kosher, on Tara's
> products.  

I am also a religious Jew and have no problem reconciling my religion
with theories of evolution. Therefore, I am even more puzzled by your
objection. What is the problem? If it were a kosher animal, say a duck,
that would be OK? But an non kosher kitten or bear would trouble you?


From: <barryk@...> (Barry Kingsbury)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 16:54:16 EDT
Subject: Re: Dinosaurs and Kashrut

My first reaction to this question was "We really do not need
'creationist' in our midst.  On more rational reflection, I came
to the same conclusion.  In the scientific community, the theory
of evolution is accepted as scientific truth.  (What is argued in
scientific circles is the mechanisms by which evolution occurs;
there is no challenge to the underlying construct. None whatsoever.)

The reactions of the 'creationists' are as follows: "the 'word' is
absolute. We cannot interpret it. When scientific truth conflicts with
religious truth, then we must reject the scientific because it conflicts
with out beliefs."  

This is far different from denying kashrut certification because you
do not accept something about the product. (For example, the issue
surrounding lewdness in advertising.)  This is also different than
saying "I will live my life in a particular way because this is who I
am." (For example, not driving on Sabbath is not a rejection of the
scientific or refusing to change with changing times. It is a positive
affirmation of being who you are.)

There is a contradiction between using Carbon-14 dating techniques to
establish how old something is and a biblical statment of how old the
universe is. If you wish to believe that all the evidence that the earth
is much older than approximately 6000 years was put here to test
man's faith, you have the right to believe in your 'truth'. You should 
know, however, that your truth isn't what is believed by most people,
or even by people who basically share your beliefs.

Barry Kingsbury


From: Gary Davis <davis@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 10:20:46 -0400
Subject: King of the Jews

I think Ezra Bob Tanenbaum's designation of the Prime Minister of Israel
as "King of the Jews" is both very funny and somewhat risky!  I am sure
Mr. Rabin would find it humourous, and he would probably start counting
his cabinet ministers to watch for the one who might sell out to the
opposition!  On the more serious side, we have to remember that Israel
is a democracy, a secular form of government that does not depend on
unanimity of the people.  Any elected person is in office by the grace
of the electorate, and is not the ruler but the representative of the
people.  He does not determine moral standards but implements them,
where it is feasible.  I think it is much safer for us to recognize that
the "King of the Jews" is resident in heaven, and for us not to
attribute such qualities to even the most competent of politicians.

Gary Davis (PhD)    Associate Professor   Faculty of Business
      University of New Brunswick in Saint John (UNBSJ)
     P.O. Box 5050   Saint John, N.B.   Canada   E2K 3M2
(506) 648-5537 (Office phone)    (506) 652-9573 (Private fax)


From: Sam Goldish <0005891269@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 19:42:51 -0400
Subject: Moshiach & Peace Agreement

Ezra Bob Tanenbaum, in his interesting V9-#8 posting, quotes his rabbi 
as saying:  "Moshiach is a job description," and then suggests that
perhaps Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin fulfills the requirements of the 
job description.

Ezra's rabbi is right on target regarding the job description.  The 
definitive job description is set forth in the Rambam's "Hilchot 
Melachim," (Laws of Kings), Chapter 11, Halachah #4.  It takes 
less than a minute to read the Rambam's criteria for recognizing Moshiach.  

As astute and capable as Prime Minister Rabin is as the head of state, 
he clearly fails to meet most of the Rambam's qualifications.

Kol tuv!

Sam Goldish

From: <mpkramer@...> (Michael Kramer)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 13:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Moshiach & Peace Agreement

Re: Ezra Bob Tannenbaum's recent suggestion that Yitzhak Rabin seems now
to hold the job of moshiach.

I don't know how serious this suggestion was, but I'd like to add an
anecdote.  When I was teaching at Hebrew U during 1991-92 I went to a
symposium featuring Yeshayahu Leibovits.  The symposium was on the subject
of "Who is a Jew?" but the discussion went on to many related subjects and
hit on the question of the moshiach.  At the time, Habad's moshiach
campaign was in full force and "heikonu le'biyat hamoshiach" (Prepare for
the coming of the messiah) signs were all over the country.  When the
question was raised about the moshiach, the moderator turned to Prof.
Leibovits, who, characteristically, grumbled and announced, with a
dismissive wave of his hand, that moshiach had arrived in 1948.

Gasps could be heard all over the auditorium.  The other speaker (I forget
his name--a history professor at TAU) said something like, "Leibovitz
magzim [exaggerates]" but Leibovits reiterated his cryptic remark.

It was only much later that I realized that Leibovits was probably
referring obliquely to R. Hillel's opinion in Sanhedrin (98 or 99, I don't
remember exactly) that moshiach had already arrived in the days of
Hizkiyahu--that, as philosopher Emmanuel Levinas explains R. Hillel,
messianism is political.

Was Mr. Tannenbaum referring to the same gemara?

Michael Kramer
UC Davis


From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 93 23:12:24 -0400
Subject: Peace Agreement

        To Israeli MJ Readers and Contributors:

        The NRP, Lubavitch and Shas views on the accords are highly
publicized here, but what is the "reid" (Yeshivish for "talk", but
more effective term) on the attitudes in Bnei Brak and the Ponivitch,
Chevron, Mir Yeshiva World?  Just Curious.  Kesiva vaChasima Tova to
all Yosef Bechhofer


From: Barry H. Rodin <brodin@...>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 14:34:39 EDT
Subject: The Mideast Peace Plan

I am surprised that there has not been any discussion of the Mideast
Peace plan on this list.

I understand that this plan still needs to be discussed and approved by the
Kenesset before it takes effect.  There is supposed to be a protest rally
in front of the Israel Embassy in New York City on Sun. Sept. 19 
(at 42nd St. and 2nd Ave. at 1 pm) on the Fast of Gedalia.  

[Please put statements like the one below in the clear form of an
opinion. Mod]

It is ironic that the distruction of the Third Commonwealth is taking
place at the same time as the first destruction.  I feel like we are
experiencing the Holocaust again in our lifetime and again no one is
offering a word of protest.

This subject is certainly appropriate for this group, since the charter
says: "This mailing list was founded ... for the purpose of discussing
Jewish topics in general."


End of Volume 9 Issue 23