Volume 9 Number 72
                       Produced: Wed Oct 27 18:17:27 1993

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

M & M in the USA
         [Eric Jaron Stieglitz]
M & M's (Revival) (3)
         [David Goldreich, Isaac Balbin, Laurent Cohen]
Oseh Stei Batei Nirin (3)
         [Morris Podalak, Mayer Danziger, Yosef Bechhofer]
Pronunciation and Law
         [Steven Friedell]
Simchat Torah (2)
         [Isaac Balbin, David Ben-Chaim]


From: Eric Jaron Stieglitz <ephraim@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 23:51:18 -0400
Subject: M & M in the USA

Here's another question about M&Ms:

  There is a rumor circulating on campus that M&Ms are now kosher in the
USA. I heard this rumor from a friend who supposedly knows someone who
gives the hechsher for the product. I've also heard this from numerous
other people. Would someone please confirm or deny this, stating a valid

Eric Jaron Stieglitz    <ephraim@...>
School: (212) 853-6791        Systems Manager Trainee at the
Home:   (401) 421-7479        Center for Telecommunications Research

[In shul this past Shabbat, they announced that M & M's here in the USA
were not YET kosher, so one should not go and buy them. The implication
did seem to be that some change in the status was imminent. Mod.]


From: David Goldreich <dg10+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 11:05:38 -0400
Subject: Re: M & M's (Revival)

> From: Steven Edell <edell@...>
> A very frum friend of mine has just told me that the Australian Rabbi
> who gave the 'Hashgacha' for M&M's has passed away, and they are now
> being made w/o hashgacha.
> Could anyone confirm/deny/verify this for us?

The Australian Rabbi that gave the hechsher for M&M's is Rabbi Boruch
Zaichyk.  He's my uncle and he's very much alive and he's not even old
(mid 50's).  However, I have no idea if the status of the hechsher
changed for any other reason.

Keep in mind that the hechsher never applied to M&M's in the U.S.

David Goldreich
PhD Student - Financial Economics
Graduate School of Industrial Administration Carnegie Mellon University
(412) 268-3780   (412) 422-5304

From: <isaac@...> (Isaac Balbin)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 23:51:20 -0400
Subject: Re: M & M's (Revival)

Articles on the Kashrus list are not usually under hashgocho per se.
M&Ms are on the list and kosher (not Cholov Yisroel, although it
is---like most chocolate---made from Avkas Cholov (milk powder) and so
according to many isn't a worry)

Most items on the Melbourne (Australia) list are subject to Birur---that
is, a frum full-time employed Applied Chemist (Kasriel Oliver)
consistently pays visits to manufacturers and checks to see what their
manufacturing process is, and whether it has changed etc.

The standards for the list were set by Harav Abaranok, Shlita, a man
anybody can rely on without any doubt. When Rav Abaranok retired from
the active pulpit Rabbinate, the list was taken over by Rabbi Zaichik,
Shlita (about 8 years ago).

Very few new sheilos have arisen, and when they have, the decisions have
been rendered in a way that satisfies Orthodox Jewry in Melbourne, in

I have expanded on my answer because Rabbi Zaichik also built an Eruv in
Melbourne which many do not agree with (if people want to know why, I
can elaborate). HOWEVER the Kashrus list is a different kettle of fish
:-) and universally accepted. Indeed, there are moves it out of the
domain of one Rabbi and to a central committee of Rabbis, chaired by one

In summary, your very frum friend is misinformed.  M&M's (and 99% of
products) don't have a full-time mashgiach!

From: Laurent Cohen <cohen@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 05:13:01 -0400
Subject: M & M's (Revival)

I don't know about the australian M&M but since this summer's M&M
discussions, I got two news:

1. In the London Beth Din list of permitted products you can find most
   products from the MARS company.

2. In Paris, you can find now the regular (which means the one non jews
   find in supermarket) MARS and TWIX bars with an hashgacha on it, BUT
   it seems that it is the same hashgacha (that is a Rav from Zurich),
   that was before contested by the Paris Beth Din.  I am not sure about
   the story, but I understood that this Rav has left Zurich and they
   kept his name on the hashgacha.

I think that 1. and 2. are independant since english MARS products are
made in england and french ones in France.

Laurent Cohen


From: Morris Podalak <morris@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 93 05:03:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Oseh Stei Batei Nirin

With regard to the question of the melacha of "oseh stei batei nirin"  

>I have asked many people if they know of any Tolda of this Melacha.  Do
> they know of any activity in any domain of endeavor other than weaving
> that comes into this category?  So far, no one I have asked has come up
> with an answer.  Does anyone know of a Tolda of this Av Melacha, or is
> this a unique Av that does not have Toldos?

 I believe there is a Yerushalmi that says that Rabbi Yochanan and Resh
 Lakish found 100 toldot for each av.  I don't know what they are in this
 case, but they must be out there somewhere.


From: diverdan!<mayer@...> (Mayer Danziger)
Date: 27 Oct 93 20:41:45 GMT
Subject: Oseh Stei Batei Nirin

Andy Goldfinger asks if the Av Melacha (parent) of Aseeat Shtai Batei
Nirin has any associated toldot (children). The sefer "The Melochos
Pertaining to the Weaving Process" by R. Pinchas Bodner (in english with
diagrams) is an excellent source for questions regarding weaving. R.
Bodner explains that there are 2 definitions of Batie Nirin. Andy's
explanation - preparing the weaving loom - is the view of Rashi's and it
would seem that there are no associated toldot. Rambam's opinion is that
Batie Nirin are referring to the empty spaces left when one weaves lace
or net-like materials. The Mishna in Mes.  Shabbat p.105 enumerates
additonal types of Batie Nirin: kirus, napa, kivra and sal.  Rashi
explains these as additonal types of preparation for the loom or weaving
process. Rambam, however, explains kirus as weaving cloth or net for use
as a sifter and napa, kivra, and sal as basket weaving.  Rambam views
weaving threads into net-like materials as the av.  Weaving cloth/net
for use as a sifter or basket weaving are toldot.  Rambam Hilchot
Shabbat 9.16.

The authors address is listed in the sefer as: 514 9th St. Lakewood, NJ
08701.  The distributor is Z.Berman Books 1340 53rd St. Brooklyn, NY

Mayer Danziger

From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 00:43:39 -0400
Subject: Oseh Stei Batei Nirin

Off the top of my head I seem to remember that in basket weaving, the
creation of a loop of straw through which to pass the threaded straw is
a tolada of this melacha.


From: Steven Friedell <friedell@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 20:51:30 EDT
Subject: Pronunciation and Law

One view of law is that it requires the same pronunciation at all times.
Another view would be that the law requires whatever is the standard
pronunciation at a particular time and place.  Thus two people in
different times and/or places can pronounce the same words quite
differently and still fulfill the same law.  A good analogy is the
requirement to be dressed properly when davening--what is proper will
vary with the culture.

--Steve Friedell


From: <isaac@...> (Isaac Balbin)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 22:58:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Simchat Torah

Some points to note:

(1) The davening is long, everyone gets aliyas. One should not `fast' on
    Yom Tov which means that one should ideally have something to eat
    before mid-day, that is, make kiddush. In our Beis Hamedrash we do
    it after our Aliya.
(2) If we then assume that people will make kiddush as soon as they have
    they have had their Aliya, then the danger of being halachically
    intoxicated for Bircas Kohanim is germane. Indeed, it is a similar
    risk as saying Shmoneh Esreh in this state.

    I think that one should not have a Reviis and then daven Shmoneh
    Esreh---probably a similar stricture applies to Bircas Kohanim. Now,
    I know that the wine of old was stronger, but I add that many use
    whiskey and the like.  Coupled with the fact that many non-Chassidim
    don't have a cup of tea or coffee before Shachris, (women who daven
    also have to wait for kiddush), the liquor usually goes straight to
    attack a few neurons. The problem with this thesis is that one
    should not be able to daven musaf for the same reason! One must
    conclude then that Cohanim are perhaps expected to be more zealous
    in maintaining a proper state that allows for hashroas hashechina
    (spiritual endowment) on their hands which facilitates them being a
    conduit for G-ds blessing.

By specifically *reacting* to the decided possibility of people becoming
merry and shifting Bircas Kohanim to Shakhris, the Mishne Brura is
actually alerting one to the stringent requirements of Bircas Kohanim at
the same time not wanting to decrease the merriment to a standard
Shabbos.  Yes, one can be merry without alcohol, but Chazal saw merit in
Bosor (meat) and Yayin (wine) in respect to Simcha.

I must say that in my experience the problem hasn't been alcohol but
rather a lack of proper decorum. People tend to make a feature out of
Musaf and play the country fool. I personally can't stomach that (as
opposed to the alcohol :-) )

From: David Ben-Chaim <DAVIDBC@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 02:47:22 -0400
Subject: RE: Simchat Torah

>(1) Where did the custom arise to drink (liquor) on Simchat Torah.  I
>know that typically on Yom Tov, the Birchat Cohanim is done during
>Mussaf (in the Diasporah).  However, on Simchat Torah, it is done during
>Shacharit, according to the Mishna Brurah (in some places) because of
>prevalent "shikrut".  This is somewhat bothersome in that most of the
>(spiritual) part of the day is spent in the Beit Knesset, and the
>resulting kalut rosh (frivilousness) which is often seen. 

    In Israel most of the shuls don't have the tradition of drinking
that you have overseas.  (Another benefit of coming on Aliyah!)  Here
Simchat Tora has a completely diferent flavor and meaning, since it is
combined together with Shmini Ateret. Therefore the prayer for rain
which is a very serious matter here, and Yizkor are on the same day as
Simchat Tora.  In our Minyan, we daven the service straight through
(after each person has his aliyah he makes Kiddush and has a cup of
coffee/tea, cake and some fruit), and then at the very end of Musaf we
have the Hakafot which can go on as long as the public want.

    Supposedly, in order for us to have Hakafot on the same day as the
Diaspora we have Hakafot Shniot (usually in the streets, public parks
etc.) with music both life and recorded, fireworks, smoking (which is
not usually done here on holidays like I remember it back in the U.S of

|    David Ben-Chaim                      |
|    Tel: 972-4-292503 or 292502          |
|    email: <davidbc@...>    |
|    fax: 972-4-233501                    |


End of Volume 9 Issue 72