Volume 52 Number 57
                    Produced: Wed Jul 19 16:29:34 EDT 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aseh lekho rav (2)
         [Joel Rich, Rabbi Wise]
Betula in the ketuba
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Chassidus and Innovations
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Criticizing great men (and women)
         [N Miller]
Emotional impact of intermarriage
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Gathering for Prayer
         [Gershon Dubin]
Interesting Halachic Question
         [Russell J Hendel]
Mochiach: misattribution
         [Freda B Birnbaum]
Two days Yom Kippur (2)
         [Rabbi Dr Ed Goldstein, Menashe Elyashiv]
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
The Week of the Chatuna
Zemanin on a Plane
         [Tzvi Stein]


From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:46:55 -0400
Subject: RE: Aseh lekho rav

>Someone wrote:
>> BTW who was the "personal posek" who authorized chassidut?
>What exactly was there to 'authorise'  ?
>Greater devotion to mitsvos? Kavono in tfilo? These are things mandated
>by the Shulchon Orukh
>Why do so many contributors to this forum equate chasidus with ch"v some
>Reform movement?

WADR please go back to the original thread.  The contention was made:

>Isn't that contrary to both the halachic view of having a personal
>"posek", as well as against the correct philosophical view of "Aseh
>Lecha Rav", both of which would seem to me to be specifying that to be
>a "proper" Jew, one needs to have a connection to a Rabbi?
>I would think it inevitable that one who is their "own best Jew" will
>inevitably end up perverting halacha in favor of their own personal
>Yossi Ginzberg

My point was that if this were the case , chassidut would never have
gotten off the ground since most if not all of the recognized  poskim of
the time opposed it. Rabbis and Scholars can debate whether authorization
was needed but I strongly object to your taking the statement out of
context and your closing statement putting words in other people's
mouths. Al tiftach peh lsatan.

Joel Rich

From: <Meirhwise@...> (Rabbi Wise)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 01:49:46 EDT
Subject: Re: Aseh lekho rav

Peres Matt writes in regard to the founding of Chassidut "what exactly
was there to authorise?"

Well, the changing of the long established prayer rite (nusach
ha-tefilla) and the shechita knives, etc etc

Any change of long established practices is a reform.

Rabbi Wise


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:05:50 -0400
Subject: Betula in the ketuba

>someone say that if the bride is pregnant by the groom, she'd be
>entitled to 200 zuz and be called "betulta" because she is "his
>betula".  My rav called that opinion a "kvetch".

The Rambam rules in Hilchos Ones Umefatheh that a rapist who marries his
vioctim (with mutual consent, obviously) writes a ketuba for 200 zuz,
even though in fact she is not a betulah at the time of the marriage.
He does NOT say (conspicuous in its absence) that this is a knas

Unexplained is why a Kohen Gadol who rapes a woman may not later marry
her, as she is no longer a betulah (next page in the Rambam).


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:27:03 -0400
Subject: Chassidus and Innovations

>BTW who was the "personal posek" who authorized chassidut?
<What exactly was there to 'authorise'  ?
>Greater devotion to mitsvos? Kavono in tfilo? These are things mandated
>by the Shulchon Orukh
>Why do so many contributors to this forum equate chasidus with ch"v some
>Reform movement?

I am not by any means anti-chassidic, but isn't this carryingf things a
bit far? The opposition to chassidus was far-ranging and bitter, and had
certainly (at least initially) solid grounding in fears of innovations
that were counter to what was normative Judaism at the time. The exact
role of the "Tzadik", the concept of confessions to him, late davening,
and so on were innovations that were certainly reasonably suspect given
the earlier various adaptations of other groups that were in fact later
confirmed to be non-halachic.  It took many years for chasidus to
"prove" that those new customs were not contrary to halacha, and they
basically did so by showing that they could be chassidim and still
remain true to Torah.

Certainly the experiences of the various sects and messianic groups in
the generations that immedfiately preceded chassidus were sufficient to
make the "regular" Jews wary of anything new, and with good reason.  It
certainly seems to me that anyone with any knowledge if Jewish history
can clearly see why the opposition to chasidus was justified, based on
their fears and their scant knowledge at the time. Remember that all
those books explaining chassidus that we consider standards today were
not yet written!

In fact, todays chasidic standard of "Chodosh assur min haTorah" (No
innovation allowed), the motto of the Chasam sofer, would do exactly
that if another such breakaway sect started.

Yossi Ginzberg


From: N Miller <nm1921@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 16:42:59 -0400
Subject: Criticizing great men (and women)

Shoshana Boubil writes:

> Someone made a derogatory remark about broadcasting and public.  A
> private shul is just that -- private.  The people who walk into the shul
> choose to do so.  The lecture is broadcast over a private satellite
> channel.  You have to pay to hear it.  If you don't want to hear it --
> you don't have to go to the shul, and you don't have to purchase the
> satellite channel.

That someone was me, though I don't know why it was "derogatory".  Nor
did I intend to offend the Sefardic world by comparing the behavior of
R. Joseph with that of one our American yahoos.  In any case, Shoshana
Boubil seems to have the strange notion that there are some actions or
words which, even if they become known, must be regarded as private and
immune from criticism.  Thus, if I learn by accident that the people
next door have meetings of the Ku Klux Klan in the basement, I have no
business talking about it to anyone or khos v'kholile criticizing it.

I on the other hand believe that stupidity and bigotry should be held up
to as much ridicule as possible and that the higher the status of the
transgressor the higher the degree of scorn is merited.

Noyekh Miller


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:54:50 -0400
Subject: Emotional impact of intermarriage

Re my earlier posting of why marrying "out" carries such a
disproportionate psychic weight: It hit me during last weeks Torah
reading that the radical, immediate, and violent act of Pinchas, done
without so much as asking a "shaila", might be the reason there is such
a visceral recation to this particular sin, more than others.  Perhaps
there is some retained kernel of shock at the immediate and visible
result of that sin in our collective memory, such that causes this
reaction.  Offhand, I cannot think of another case that provoked such
quick a and terminal punishment.

Yossi Ginzberg


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:29:33 GMT
Subject: Gathering for Prayer

Agudath Israel of America is sponsoring a gathering to pray for our
brothers in Israel.  To be held tomorrow, Wednesday July 19 at Yeshiva
Rabbi Chaim Berlin at 1605 Coney Island Avenue (between Avenue L & M) in
Brooklyn.  Mincha at 7:45 followed by tefilos; women welcome as well.


[Another such gathering I just saw information on:
The Jewish Federation of Greater Washington and the Jewish Community
Relations Council are sponsoring a rally Wednesday at noon to support
Israel at this time of crisis.  The rally will be at Freedom Plaza
(Pennsylvania Av., between 13th and 14th).  See the link for details:


From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:59:37 -0400
Subject: Interesting Halachic Question

The Code of Jewish law states that to eat before a fast you must do TWO
things: a) You must eat before the proper time of dawn and b) you must
INTEND e.g. when you go to sleep to eat before that time. If you do not
INTEND and get up early you may not eat!

So if you are flying from Prague to Israel and INTENDED to eat till the
Israeli time where you will be you may eat the whole trip till the
proper time.  But if e.g. you intended to sleep you may not eat in the
event that you can't sleep

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.Rashiyomi.com/


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:16:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Mochiach: misattribution

In MJ V52N50, Shoshana Boublil refutes a previous post, but mistakenly 
attributes the post to me:

>> From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
> I am only responding out of disappointment with the following style of 
> response.  It appears that we are back to "only my culture is legitimate 
> and good.  Anything else should be abolished".
>> recently on Mail-Jewish:
>>> To be a Mochiach knowing that it will be in the headlines the next day
>>> is the height of insensitivity.
> The same could be said for any Jewish activity that could be 
> misunderstood by anti-Jewish journalist.
> Should this be our criteria for how we live our lives?


The only part of what she quotes and then refutes that I wrote is a
short bit where I have quoted someone and then gone on to say something
else.  (I did say "recently on Mail-Jewish:") None of what she refutes
is part of anything I've posted.

I have no wish to be asociated weith the material Shoshana is refuting!

Freda Birnbaum, <fbb6@...>
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"


From: <BERNIEAVI@...> (Rabbi Dr Ed Goldstein)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 21:47:39 EDT
Subject: Two days Yom Kippur

It is related that when Mir was in Shanghai, the Chazon Ish zt'l gave
them the following advice:

To observe one day as Yom Kippur with the fasting and inuuyim; the
second day as shabbat with shvut melacha but no fasting since it is
abide fasting for two days straight.

Rabbi Dr Ed Goldstein, Hewlett NY, a talmid of R Isaac Simon zt'l.  of

From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:00:53 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Two days Yom Kippur

See (in Hebrew) Bar Ilan Parashat HaShavua #462, I wrote about this. The
problem was in 1941 (5702). However, the Hazon Ish is a minority
opinion.  Itt seems that the halacha is not to change the accepted
dating of Japan.  See R. Kasher's kav taarich (dateline) book.


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:17:13 -0400
Subject: Veal

>Is there a way not to draw the conclusion that had
>R. Moshe been provided with accurate, complete and current data or would
>have seen the conditions for other animals he would have been a
>proponent of vegetarianism or veganism.

Maybe, maybe not.

What seems clear to me is 1) that we don't make such assumptions, and 2)
that R. Moshe's ban on veal has been one of his rulings that has never
been accepted, as is visible in almost every butcher shop and
restuarant.  Other rulings of his that were similarly rejected, i.e. the
ban on shabbos timers for anything other than lighting, have been
discussed in this forum previously.

Yossi Ginzberg


From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:18:10 -0400
Subject: Re: The Week of the Chatuna

> Where is the origin of the custom that a Chattan and Kallah do not see
> each other for a week or day prior to the chupah?

Who said there is such a custom?!?! I am unaware of any Halachic
source/basis for this so called custom, other than a christian
superstition which runs along the same lines.

[Note: One of the earlier responses to this topic included a link to an
article that included a number of Halachic sources regarding this
custom. While what I have seen to date may indicate that the custom is
"weak", I would disagree with a statement that there are no Halachic
sources for the custom. Avi]


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:55:34 -0400
Subject: Zemanin on a Plane

While on a plane, you must act according to the appearance of the sun as
it would be from the point on the earth directly below where the plane
is flying at that moment.  How to determine that is left as an exercise
to the reader :)

The part about "point on the earth" is important to stress.  That means
that just because you can see the sun from the plane does not
necessarily mean it is "daytime" for you.  If the sun appears to be
rising from the plane, then directly below you, it is dark.  You must
wait sufficient time after that for the sun to be visible from the earth
below in order to do "daytime mitzvos".


End of Volume 52 Issue 57